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Man And Other Animals (CRIMINAL LAW & PROCEDURE)

Sun, 17 Aug 2003 03:13:00 GMT
Tags: 8-15-03, animals, creatures, criminal, feelings, fellow, guardian, jeremy, law, man, procedure, rifkin, rights

Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We Should
Give Them Rights Too
By Jeremy Rifkin
The Guardian - UK
8-15-03

While much of the talk in big science this past year has
centred on new breakthroughs in biotechnology,
nanotechnology, computers and more esoteric questions
such as the age of our universe, a quieter story has been
unfolding behind the scenes in laboratories around the
world - one whose impact on human perception and
our understanding of the world is likely to be even more
profound. And, strangely, the companies sponsoring the
research are McDonald's, Burger King, KFC and other
fast food purveyors.

Pressured by animal rights activists and by growing public
support for the humane treatment of animals, these
companies have financed research into, among other things,
the emotional, mental and behavioural states of our fellow
creatures. What the researchers are finding is unsettling. It
appears that many of our fellow creatures are more like us
than we had ever imagined. They feel pain, suffer,
experience stress, affection, excitement - and even love.

Studies on pigs' social behaviour at Purdue University in the
US, for example, have found that they crave affection and are
easily depressed if isolated or denied playtime with each other.
The lack of mental and physical stimuli can result in deterioration
of health and increased incidence of diseases. The EU has taken
such studies to heart and has outlawed the use of isolating pig
stalls by 2012, and mandated their replacement with open-air
stalls. In Germany, the government is encouraging pig farmers
to give each pig 20 seconds of human contact every day and to
provide them with two or three toys to prevent them fighting.

The pig study only scratches the surface of what is going on
in the field of research into animal emotions and cognitive
abilities. Researchers were stunned recently by the publication
of an article in the prestigious journal Science reporting on the
conceptual abilities of New Caledonian crows. In controlled
experiments, scientists at Oxford University reported that two
birds named Betty and Abel were given a choice between
using two tools, one a straight wire, the other a hooked wire,
to snag a piece of meat from inside a tube. Both chose the
hooked wire. But then, unexpectedly, Abel, the more dominant
male, stole Betty's hook, leaving her only with a straight wire.
Unphased, Betty used her beak to wedge the wire in a crack
and then bent it with her beak to produce a hook, like the one
stolen from her. She then snagged the food from inside the tube.
Researchers repeated the experiment 10 more times giving her
straight wires, and she fashioned a hook out of the wire nine
times, demonstrating a sophisticated ability to create tools.

Then there is the story of Alex the African grey parrot, who
was able to master tasks previously thought to be the preserve
of human beings. Alex can identify more than 40 objects and
seven colours, and can add and separate objects into categories.

Equally impressive is Koko, a gorilla who was taught sign
language, has mastered more than 1,000 signs and understands
several thousand English words. On human IQ tests, she scores
between 70 and 95, putting her in the slow learner - but not
retarded - category.

Tool-making and developing language skills are just two of the
many attributes we thought were exclusive to our species. Self-
awareness is another. Philosophers and animal behaviourists
have long argued that other animals are not capable of self-
awareness because they lack a sense of individualism. Not so,
according to a spate of new studies. At the Washington National
Zoo, orangutans given mirrors explore parts of their bodies they
can't see otherwise, showing a sense of self. An orangutan named
Chantek at the Atlanta Zoo used a mirror to groom his teeth and
adjust his sunglasses, says his trainer.

When it comes to the ultimate test of what distinguishes humans
from the other creatures, scientists have long believed that
mourning for the dead represents the real divide. Other animals
have no sense of their mortality and are unable to comprehend
the concept of their own death. But animals, it appears,
experience grief. Elephants will often stand next to their dead
kin for days, in silence, occasionally touching their bodies with
their trunks. Kenyan biologist Joyce Poole, who has studied
African elephants for 25 years, says that elephant behaviour
towards their dead "leaves me with little doubt that they
experience deep emotion and have some understanding of
death."

We also know that virtually all animals play, especially when
young. Anyone who has ever observed the antics of puppies,
kittens or bear cubs cannot help but notice the similarities in the
way they play and our own children. Recent studies in the brain
chemistry of rats show that when they play, their brains release
large amounts of dopamine, a neurochemical associated with
pleasure and excitement in human beings.

Noting the striking similarities in brain anatomy and chemistry
of humans and other animals, Steven Siviy, a behavioural
scientist at Gettysburg College in Pennsylvania, asks a question
increasingly on the minds of other researchers: "If you believe
in evolution by natural selection, how can you believe that feelings
suddenly appeared, out of the blue, with human beings?"

The new findings of researchers are a far cry from the conceptions
espoused by orthodox science. Until very recently, scientists were
still advancing the idea that most creatures behaved by sheer instinct,
and that what appeared to be learned behaviour was merely
genetically wired activity. Now we know that geese have to teach
their goslings their migration routes. In fact, we are finding out that
learning is passed on from parent to offspring far more often than
not and that most animals engage in learned experience brought on
by continued experimentation and trial-and-error problem-solving.

So what does all of this portend for the way we treat our fellow
creatures? What about the thousands of animals subjected each
year to painful laboratory experiments? Or the millions of
domestic animals raised under inhumane conditions and destined
for slaughter and human consumption. Should we ban leg-hold
traps and discourage the sale and purchase of fur coats? And
what about killing animals for sport? Fox hunting in England,
bull-fighting in Spain, cock-fighting in Mexico? What about
entertainment? Should lions be caged in zoos, should elephants
be made to perform in circuses?

These questions are beginning to be raised in courtrooms and
in legislation around the world. Today, Harvard and 25 other
law schools in the US have introduced law courses on animal
rights, and an increasing number of cases representing the rights
of animals are entering the court system. Germany recently
became the first government in the world to guarantee animal
rights in its constitution.

The human journey is, at its core, about the extension of
empathy to broader and more inclusive domains. At first,
the empathy extended only to kin and tribe. Eventually it
was extended to people of like-minded values - a common
religion, nationality or ideology. In the 19th century, the first
humane societies were established, extending the empathy
to include our fellow creatures. Today, millions of people,
under the banner of the animal rights movement, are
continuing to deepen and to expand human concern for,
and empathy toward, our fellow creatures.

The current studies into animals' emotions, cognition and
behaviour open up a new phase in the human journey,
allowing us to both expand and deepen our empathy - this
time, to include the broader community of creatures who
live alongside us.

- Jeremy Rifkin is the author of Beyond Beef: The Rise and
Fall of the Cattle Culture (Plume, 1992), and The Biotech
Century (Victor Gollancz, 1998). He is also the president
of the Foundation on Economic Trends in Washington DC

Guardian Unlimited Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003
http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/story/0,11917,1020066,00.html

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  • Comments
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:02:00 GMT(1)
  • "useless lying ****head" <aboveground@lawknowledge.org.earth.man> wrote in message
    news:r3P%a.169767$TJ.10093565@lawknowledge.org.twister.austin.rr.co m... skank wrote:>Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We Should>Give Them Rights Too>By Jeremy RifkinThis is the man who said that earth's resources would be depleted by 1985. Reference? Not sure *I* can find that one

    Well then.

    <..>
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:44:00 GMT(2)
  • pearl wrote:
    Theodore A. Kaldis wrote: pearl wrote:
    Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We Should Give Them Rights Too By Jeremy Rifkin
    This is the man who said that earth's resources would be depleted by 1985.
    Reference?

    Actually, it might have been Erlich who said this particular bollocks, but
    Rifkin's been around long to have said plenty of things that are just as
    silly.
    And he still has the cheek to show himself in public? There is no reason why this man should be listened to.
    Provide a reference to support your allegation first, troll.
    Now pardon me while I go have a steak dinner.
    --
    Theodore A. Kaldis
    kaldis@lawknowledge.org.worldnet.att.net
  • Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:41:00 GMT(3)
  • social disease wrote:I don't see any reason why you would attack the credibility of theauthor of the web site, since it contains mostly links from reputablesources and only few lines of introduction. Because that's his modus operandum, the -only- 'argument' he has.

    Strawman. My argument was much more substantive -- see my response to
    the OP, skag. What's *your* MO?

    "inner earth beings"
    "hollow earth"
    that goofy patent for a MANUFACTURED globe
    your helium-inflated number(s) for feed:beef
    rain forest destruction
    Brazil's exports (based on *Argentina's* trade)
    Stolen French flying saucer.
    Zapper.
    Foot massage.
    Leprechauns.
    Channeling.
    Polar fountains.
    Sun gazing.
    Chemtrails.
    AIDS and ebola conspiracy theory.
    Crop circles.
    Of course if you would directly accuse the British Royal Society,National Geographic Magazine or American Museum of Natural History with"disinformation", you would show how ignorant and stupid person you are. Apparently, even indirectly. :).

    You are shown to be an imbecile on a daily basis, and not by what we
    write -- you're convicted of stupidity by your own posts. The OP is, so
    far, in the same boat.
  • Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:02:00 GMT(4)
  • "mr_natural" <natural@lawknowledge.org.indra.com> wrote in message news:<upw0b.658$

    I don't hear you whine about the BILLIONS of dollars wasted
    on needless animal research, not even mentioning the millions of
    animals tortured to death. The real crime is that a lot of that
    research is done for the sake of the meat industry, which would
    not be torturing and murdering billions of animals each year,
    and then breaking every single animal cruelty law
    -- as pathetically weak as those laws are --- if people simply
    DID NOT EAT MEAT!!

    No -- you pick up on ONE or TWO little studies, which cost perhaps
    a few thousand dollars. But, like all the big-spending animal-torturers,
    you won't give up your hamburgers or fur coats or choose a different
    detergent, and then you complain when the pollution increases and
    your health deteriorates as a result of all those animals who didn't
    have to be born in the first place.

    I don't believe that most animals are a lot like us, and I don't care.
    There ARE unnecessary studies, since we already know that animals
    feel pain being boiled alive like chickens in factory farms or lobsters
    in seafood restaurants, and that is INFINITELY more important than you're
    whiny little complaints.

    And -- so what about the billions of NON-animal rights activists:
    those who would not make a simple choice in their lives to benefit
    animals if given an opportunity? *I* do not care about THEM.
    The value of THEIR lives is no more than that of most animals.

    And, even in the unlikely event these psychology studies reveal that
    animals ARE like us: will the meat-industry openly
    and objectively SUPPORT the findings?
    Absolutely not: they will they lie and commit purjury
    about the results for money because they are cowards and traitors to
    the countries of the US and UK and other bastions of freedom.
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:02:00 GMT(5)
  • "Theodore A. Kaldis" <kaldis@lawknowledge.org.worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:3F3F7D66.9A299709@lawknowledge.org.worldnet.att.net... pearl wrote: Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We Should Give Them Rights Too By Jeremy Rifkin This is the man who said that earth's resources would be depleted by 1985.

    Reference?
    And he still has the cheek to show himself in public? There is no reason why this man should be listened to.

    Provide a reference to support your allegation first, troll.
    Now pardon me while I go have a steak dinner. -- Theodore A. Kaldis kaldis@lawknowledge.org.worldnet.att.net
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:37:00 GMT(6)
  • skank wrote:Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We ShouldGive Them Rights TooBy Jeremy RifkinThis is the man who said that earth's resources would be depleted by 1985. Reference?

    Not sure *I* can find that one (I recall it, though: along with Paul
    Ehrlich's and Ted Danson's similarly failed prophecies), but others have
    assailed his abject stupidity. Professor Stephen J Gould dismissed
    Rifkin's book ALGENY as "a cleverly constructed tract of
    anti-intellectual propaganda masquerading as scholarship." Gould is
    hardly a right-wing conspirator, and his opinions of Rifkin are
    prevalent among academicians and others who are actual experts in the
    fields Rifkin has futily tried to conquer.

    There's a dossier on Rifkin at the following conservative site.
    http://www.nationalcenter.org/dos7126.htm
    And he still has the cheek to show himself in public? There is no reason whythis man should be listened to. Provide a reference to support your allegation first, troll.

    There's no reason why you should be listened to, either:
    "inner earth beings"
    "hollow earth"
    that goofy patent for a MANUFACTURED globe
    your helium-inflated number(s) for feed:beef
    rain forest destruction
    Brazil's exports (based on *Argentina's* trade)
    Stolen French flying saucer.
    Zapper.
    Foot massage.
    Leprechauns.
    Channeling.
    Polar fountains.
    Sun gazing.
    Chemtrails.
    AIDS and ebola conspiracy theory.
    Crop circles.

    ----
    "Christianity is our foe. If animal rights is to succeed, we must
    destroy the Judeo-Christian Religious tradition." -- Peter Singer
  • Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:56:00 GMT(7)
  • "pearl" <tea@lawknowledge.org.signguestbook.ie> wrote in message news:bhr8dk$m6d$1@lawknowledge.org.kermit.esat.net... lying "usual suspect" <aboveground@lawknowledge.org.earth.man> wrote in message news:Jg60b.199249$xg5.26024@lawknowledge.org.twister.austin.rr.com. ..>Strawman. No, it's the truth. Not even close. Liar.>My argument was much more substantive -- see my response to>the OP, skag. Oh, we did,- you showed narrow-mindedness bias and ignorance. No, I pointed out the logical fallacy of appealing to authority. You ignored over two hundred authoritative reports. I also pointed out from your own source that scientists are not in agreement We are familiar with your selective editing. 'Mass Extinction Underway, Majority of Biologists Say' http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html is the title of the article from which you quote. Add; "Pay a "researcher" or an "expert witness" enough and he'll tell you whatever you want the jury to hear. " - 'usual suspect' / 15 July 2003 02:23 and we get the picture. with the RAMPANT SPECULATION that mass extinctions are occurring. What it actually says is; 'Many of the estimates of species loss are extrapolations based on the global destruction of rain forests and other rich habitats.' http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html 'extrapolation' does not equate to 'speculation', sophist. Your OPINIONS regarding mass extinction are lacking in evidence and support. I've provided over 200 links to authoritative reports, while you brought the views of a few naysayers, and *my* 'opinions' lack support? You lying fool. <..> Let's put YOU in the spotlight for a moment, shall we;>Look at the newspapers one day and you'll find>that our cowardly and murderous so-called>soldiers have been dropping bombs on large>cities in Iraq killing innocents. You can deny>it if you want. Be my guest. He has yet to provide any evidence of systematic collateral damage other than a defeated, disgusting UN ambassador who remained Saddam's apologist until Baghdad fell. Then suddenly he agreed that Saddam should've been long deposed. His prattle about civilian deaths also ceased following the fall of Baghdad, just as your hero "Baghdad Bob" suddenly stopped his own feeble-minded propaganda. The fact that you eat up Dreck's vomit and then regurgitate it doesn't make it true. If YOU have evidence of coalition forces committing systematic bombing of civilians, please provide it. Otherwise, you're nothing but a petty demagogue of the shrillest, shallowest order. Adding indifference to injury At least 20,000 civilians were injured in the Iraq war: Why are the occupiers ignoring their suffering and their needs? August 7th 2003 Extraction of media-reported civilian injuries from the Iraq Body Count database and archive of war reports provides evidence of at least 20,000 civilian injuries on top of the maximum reported 7798 deaths. 8,000 of these injuries were in the Baghdad area alone, suggesting that the full, countrywide picture, as with deaths, is yet to emerge. ........' http://www.iraqbodycount.net/editorial_aug0703.htm Civilian deaths in Iraq could be as high as 10,000 Final body count could be biggest since Vietnam war .. AMERICAN guns, bombs and missiles killed more civilians in the recent war in Iraq than in any conflict since Vietnam, according to preliminary assessments carried out by the UN, international aid agencies and independent study groups. - May 23rd http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/archive/23-5-19103-23-48-54.html.
    Good work. He's a dirty liar, and I want to make that plainly known.
    Shame on you. You completely disgust me, suspect.
  • Mon, 25 Aug 2003 06:36:00 GMT(8)
  • "exploratory" <exploratory@lawknowledge.org.comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:e2719240.0308232302.7bfa8268@lawknowledge.org.posting.google.c om... "mr_natural" <natural@lawknowledge.org.indra.com> wrote in message news:<upw0b.658$ I don't hear you whine about the BILLIONS of dollars wasted on needless animal research, not even mentioning the millions of animals tortured to death.

    No, you don't.
    The real crime is that a lot of that research is done for the sake of the meat industry, which would not be torturing and murdering billions of animals each year, and then breaking every single animal cruelty law -- as pathetically weak as those laws are --- if people simply DID NOT EAT MEAT!!

    Even assuming your hyperbolic ventilations were true, I still like meat. I
    still eat it.
    No -- you pick up on ONE or TWO little studies, which cost perhaps a few thousand dollars.

    Huh?
    But, like all the big-spending animal-torturers, you won't give up your hamburgers or fur coats or choose a different detergent,

    Precisely.
    and then you complain when the pollution increases

    Pollution has greatly decreased over the last 40 years.
    and your health deteriorates as a result of all those animals who didn't have to be born in the first place.

    No, my health will deteriorate because I am growing older.
    I don't believe that most animals are a lot like us, and I don't care.

    We can agree on that, at least.
    There ARE unnecessary studies,

    Of course. Always have been, are now, and always will be. But many times, we
    don't know that a study was "unnecessary" until after it's done.
    since we already know that animals feel pain being boiled alive like chickens in factory farms or lobsters in seafood restaurants, and that is INFINITELY more important than you're whiny little complaints.

    More important to you. I *love* boiled lobster.

    And I wasn't complaining.
    And -- so what about the billions of NON-animal rights activists: those who would not make a simple choice in their lives to benefit animals if given an opportunity?

    What about them?
    *I* do not care about THEM.

    OK. You're on record.
    The value of THEIR lives is no more than that of most animals.

    From one philosophical perspective, you're right. It's just that the vast,
    vast majority of people disagree, and care much more about at least some
    other people than they care about animals.
    And, even in the unlikely event these psychology studies reveal that animals ARE like us: will the meat-industry openly and objectively SUPPORT the findings?

    Who cares? I would still eat shrimp even if they could solve differential
    equations. They taste good. In fact, I had shrimp last night.
    Absolutely not: they will they lie and commit purjury

    Purjury?
    about the results for money because they are cowards and traitors to the countries of the US and UK and other bastions of freedom.

    Well, I see we've reached the point where just about everything has been
    thrown in, including patriotism. What's next? Kitchen sink?
  • Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:38:00 GMT(9)
  • "Ray" <camcompany@lawknowledge.org.ntlworld.com> wrote in message
    news:eAU%a.15089$yl6.2026@lawknowledge.org.newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net... "Zakhar" <nospam@lawknowledge.org.donotuse123.com> wrote in message news:8XR%a.8102$z7.891118@lawknowledge.org.wards.force9.net... "pearl" <tea@lawknowledge.org.signguestbook.ie> wrote in message news:bhodrr$2e1$1@lawknowledge.org.kermit.esat.net... WB, Z. Thanks. I've had a good memorable holiday. I'll be back up to speed with the groups shortly, but other things are taking priority at the moment. Your post
    was interesting, particularly being in a broadsheet newspaper. Cheers. Yes, I know the score. Like that little welcome home pile of letters in window envelopes. "Dear Sir, Despite recent reminders we note the above acount is now seriously
    overdue". At least that happens to me every year, I don't know why they keep
    sending reminders, I never foret. I just don't pay the buggers 'till the last moment. Anyhow, I add my name to the list of greeters - must be nice to be so popular:-)

    Thanks Ray.

    ~~jonnies~~ chum Jay Helms hasn't uploaded any photo's yet of this year's
    farters trip. He's probably airbrushing and mislabelling them now, I can't
    wait!
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:11:00 GMT(10)
  • On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:13:25 +0100, "pearl" <tea@lawknowledge.org.signguestbook.ie> wrote:
    Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We ShouldGive Them Rights TooBy Jeremy RifkinThe Guardian - UK8-15-03While much of the talk in big science this past year hascentred on new breakthroughs in biotechnology,nanotechnology, computers and more esoteric questionssuch as the age of our universe, a quieter story has beenunfolding behind the scenes in laboratories around theworld - one whose impact on human perception andour understanding of the world is likely to be even moreprofound. And, strangely, the companies sponsoring theresearch are McDonald's, Burger King, KFC and otherfast food purveyors.Pressured by animal rights activists and by growing publicsupport for the humane treatment of animals, thesecompanies have financed research into, among other things,the emotional, mental and behavioural states of our fellowcreatures. What the researchers are finding is unsettling. Itappears that many of our fellow creatures are more like usthan we had ever imagined. They feel pain, suffer,experience stress, affection, excitement - and even love.

    Anyone with a dog or cat should be aware of that without
    having to be told by a study. Are normal people astonished to
    learn that when animals appear to be displaying excitement,
    they really are exited? Do most people think they're faking it
    or something?
    Studies on pigs' social behaviour at Purdue University in theUS, for example, have found that they crave affection and areeasily depressed if isolated or denied playtime with each other.The lack of mental and physical stimuli can result in deteriorationof health and increased incidence of diseases. The EU has takensuch studies to heart and has outlawed the use of isolating pigstalls by 2012, and mandated their replacement with open-airstalls.

    Good.

    [...]Noting the striking similarities in brain anatomy and chemistryof humans and other animals, Steven Siviy, a behaviouralscientist at Gettysburg College in Pennsylvania, asks a questionincreasingly on the minds of other researchers: "If you believein evolution by natural selection, how can you believe that feelingssuddenly appeared, out of the blue, with human beings?"

    Amazingly enough, there are people stupid enough to believe
    animals don't experience many emotions.
    The new findings of researchers are a far cry from the conceptionsespoused by orthodox science. Until very recently, scientists werestill advancing the idea that most creatures behaved by sheer instinct,and that what appeared to be learned behaviour was merelygenetically wired activity.

    Those phoney animals...pretending to experience emotions when
    they can't really do it....pretending to learn things even though they
    can't do that either....dogs just know to "sit" on command by instinct....
    Now we know that geese have to teachtheir goslings their migration routes. In fact, we are finding out thatlearning is passed on from parent to offspring far more often thannot and that most animals engage in learned experience brought onby continued experimentation and trial-and-error problem-solving.So what does all of this portend for the way we treat our fellowcreatures? What about the thousands of animals subjected eachyear to painful laboratory experiments? Or the millions ofdomestic animals raised under inhumane conditions and destinedfor slaughter and human consumption.

    Provide them with decent lives and then millions of domestic
    animals would experience decent lives only because people
    eat them. And now that you mention it, many animals already
    do.
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:48:00 GMT(11)
  • "pearl" <tea@lawknowledge.org.signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
    news:bhodrr$2e1$1@lawknowledge.org.kermit.esat.net... WB, Z.

    Thanks.

    I've had a good memorable holiday. I'll be back up to speed with the groups
    shortly, but other things are taking priority at the moment. Your post was
    interesting, particularly being in a broadsheet newspaper.

    Cheers.
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 06:04:00 GMT(12)
  • pearl wrote:
    Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We Should Give Them Rights Too By Jeremy Rifkin

    This is the man who said that earth's resources would be depleted by 1985.
    And he still has the cheek to show himself in public? There is no reason why
    this man should be listened to.

    Now pardon me while I go have a steak dinner.
    --
    Theodore A. Kaldis
    kaldis@lawknowledge.org.worldnet.att.net
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:03:00 GMT(13)
  • WB, Z.
  • Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:01:00 GMT(14)
  • usual suspect wrote:
    usual suspect wrote: The links I showed hardly any journalism... should read "The links I looked at showed hardly any journalism..."

    That's your opinion. But that's not a justification to attack the author
    of the website. He DID linked to reputable sources.
    Pick an article, rebut it with logical arguments, proofs, sources,
    authors! You don't like the "journalism" ? Check out the original paper
    the article is based on!
    But of course I guess, the only think you can do is bs-ing.

    dapra
  • Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:20:00 GMT(15)
  • HOWEDY Doc,

    Pretty good. Perhaps that's HOWE COME we call you Doc, eh?

    The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >

    "Dr. Zarkov" <Ming@lawknowledge.org.Mongo.com> wrote in message
    news:bhs8d7$m74$1@lawknowledge.org.bob.news.rcn.net... <dh_ld@lawknowledge.org.nomail.com> wrote ... On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:13:25 ?, "pearl" <tea@lawknowledge.org.signguestbook.ie>
    wrote:Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We ShouldGive Them Rights TooBy Jeremy RifkinThe Guardian - UK8-15-03 [...]So what does all of this portend for the way we treat our
    fellowcreatures? What about the thousands of animals subjected eachyear to painful laboratory experiments? __________________________________________________ _______ If scientists could replace animal research and testing with methods which did not need to use animals then they would. There are several reasons for this: * Scientists do not like or want to use animals in
    research. Like the vast majority of people they do not want to see
    animals suffer unnecessarily. In fact less than 10% of biomedical
    research uses animals. Unfortunately for much of the work involved in biomedical research there are as yet no working alternative techniques that would allow us to stop using animals. * Biomedical research is producing thousands of new
    compounds, which may have potential as new drugs. It is much more
    efficient to screen these compounds using rapid non-animal techniques to
    test their effectiveness and toxicity. * The very high standards of animal welfare and care
    required of British research establishments are a contributory factor in
    making animal research very expensive. If scientists can develop
    alternatives to using animals it will allow them to divert their limited
    research funds to other areas of research. [...] WITHOUT ANIMAL RESEARCH: Polio would kill or cripple thousands of unvaccinated children
    and adults this year. Most of the nation's one million insulin-dependent diabetics
    wouldn't be insulin dependent -- they would be dead. 60 million Americans would risk death from heart attack,
    stroke or kidney failure from lack of medication to control their high
    blood pressure. Doctors would have no chemotherapy to save the 70% of children
    who now survive acute lymphocytic leukemia. <snip similar examples> It's not clear what you mean to imply by this. If you mean that
    the basis for using insulin and some of the other methods were developed
    through animal research, that is correct, but it evades the point.
    Insulin availability is not dependent on animal research at all.
    Insulin can be produced by recombinant technology--it is not dependent on
    animals at all. The same applies to all the other areas mentioned. Of course
    much of our biomedical knowledge was developed by use of animal
    experimentation. That does not mean that such experimentation was either ethical or
    necessary. It's just the way that things were done in the past. The
    question of whether it is now ethical or necessary is a complex one: IMHO
    and I think the opinion of most scientists and ethicists, it depends on the
    animal, the experiment, and the feasibility of using other methods. But it
    evades the point to say that it's the way research advanced in the past. A
    lot of productive work was accomplished by slaves over the centuries
    when slavery was legal--that didn't make slavery ethical or necessary.
  • Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:34:00 GMT(16)
  • dapra1 wrote: That's your opinion. But that's not a justification to attack the author of the website. He DID linked to reputable sources.

    This is YOUR opinion. I didn't attack the person (not an author) who
    runs the website. I pointed out his peculiar employer and what they
    teach over there.
    Pick an article, rebut it with logical arguments, proofs, sources, authors! You don't like the "journalism" ? Check out the original paper the article is based on!

    I did that, idiot.
    But of course I guess, the only think you can do is bs-ing.

    You've just done more than I have in that regard.
  • Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:28:00 GMT(17)
  • lying skag wrote:Strawman. No, it's the truth.

    Not even close.
    My argument was much more substantive -- see my response tothe OP, skag. Oh, we did,- you showed narrow-mindedness bias and ignorance.

    No, I pointed out the logical fallacy of appealing to authority. I also
    pointed out from your own source that scientists are not in agreement
    with the RAMPANT SPECULATION that mass extinctions are occurring.

    Your OPINIONS regarding mass extinction are lacking in evidence and support.
    What's *your* MO?"inner earth beings""hollow earth"that goofy patent for a MANUFACTURED globeyour helium-inflated number(s) for feed:beefrain forest destructionBrazil's exports (based on *Argentina's* trade)Stolen French flying saucer.Zapper.Foot massage.Leprechauns.Channeling.Polar fountains.Sun gazing.Chemtrails.AIDS and ebola conspiracy theory.Crop circles. Your 'list' contains innacuracies and lies.

    Tell me what's inaccurate and I'll edit the list to reflect your true
    nuttiness. :-)
    You are shown to be an imbecile on a daily basis, and not by what wewrite -- you're convicted of stupidity by your own posts. The OP is, sofar, in the same boat. Let's put YOU in the spotlight for a moment, shall we;Look at the newspapers one day and you'll findthat our cowardly and murderous so-calledsoldiers have been dropping bombs on largecities in Iraq killing innocents. You can denyit if you want. Be my guest.

    He has yet to provide any evidence of systematic collateral damage other
    than a defeated, disgusting UN ambassador who remained Saddam's
    apologist until Baghdad fell. Then suddenly he agreed that Saddam
    should've been long deposed. His prattle about civilian deaths also
    ceased following the fall of Baghdad, just as your hero "Baghdad Bob"
    suddenly stopped his own feeble-minded propaganda.

    The fact that you eat up Dreck's vomit and then regurgitate it doesn't
    make it true. If YOU have evidence of coalition forces committing
    systematic bombing of civilians, please provide it. Otherwise, you're
    nothing but a petty demagogue of the shrillest, shallowest order.
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:33:00 GMT(18)
  • "Werner Hetzner" <whetzner@lawknowledge.org.mac.com> wrote in message
    news:3F3F96A9.6090104@lawknowledge.org.mac.com... pearl wrote:Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We ShouldGive Them Rights TooBy Jeremy RifkinThe Guardian - UK8-15-03... Did you know the survival rate of crodidiles is about 1 in a 1000? Q: What do you think the reason is? A: The other 999 get eaten by other of natures' creatures no matter how they feel about it.

    A well thought out and written response. - Go and have a lie down.
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:01:00 GMT(19)
  • the village idiot wrote:>This is the man who said that earth's resources would be depleted by 1985.Reference?Not sure *I* can find that one Well then.

    "We're finally going to get the bill for the Industrial Age. If the
    projections are right, it's going to be a big one: the ecological
    collapse of the planet." -- Jeremy Rifkin

    esad
  • Mon, 18 Aug 2003 03:49:00 GMT(20)
  • <dh_ld@lawknowledge.org.nomail.com> wrote in message news:h4i0kv0fh2pmfo5mrbbo0v2bhrkprkhlii@lawknowledge.org.4ax.com... On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:13:25 +0100, "pearl" <tea@lawknowledge.org.signguestbook.ie> wrote:Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We ShouldGive Them Rights TooBy Jeremy RifkinThe Guardian - UK8-15-03 [...]So what does all of this portend for the way we treat our fellowcreatures? What about the thousands of animals subjected eachyear to painful laboratory experiments? __________________________________________________ _______ If scientists could replace animal research and testing with methods which did not need to use animals then they would. There are several reasons for this: * Scientists do not like or want to use animals in research. Like the vast majority of people they do not want to see animals suffer unnecessarily. In fact less than 10% of biomedical research uses animals. Unfortunately for much of the work involved in biomedical research there are as yet no working alternative techniques that would allow us to stop using animals. * Biomedical research is producing thousands of new compounds, which may have potential as new drugs. It is much more efficient to screen these compounds using rapid non-animal techniques to test their effectiveness and toxicity. * The very high standards of animal welfare and care required of British research establishments are a contributory factor in making animal research very expensive. If scientists can develop alternatives to using animals it will allow them to divert their limited research funds to other areas of research. [...] http://www.bret.org.uk/noan.htm __________________________________________________ _______ [...] From the bald eagle to the red wolf, biomedical research has helped bring many species back from the brink of extinction. Conservation and captive breeding programs, often using fertilization techniques developed for humans, have made it possible for these animals to be reintroduced into the wild, and today their numbers are growing. Biologists and wildlife veterinarians rely on the latest research in reproduction, nutrition, toxicology and medicine to build a better future for our wild animals. In vitro fertilization, sperm banks and artificial insemination were all developed to help human couples, but today they also are regularly used to ensure the survival of endangered species. [...] http://fbresearch.org/helpingwildlife.html

    Stop raising livestock, and many thousands of threatened species
    will be able to recover as their now overgrazed habitat regenerates.
    __________________________________________________ _______ WITHOUT ANIMAL RESEARCH: Polio would kill or cripple thousands of unvaccinated children and adults this year.

    "We commissioned an OPV Vaccine Report and started making all
    kinds of other inquires. The OPV Vaccine report that we received was
    a shocking report. It covered a recent period a little less than 5 years
    and the following is the summary for that period: The number of Vaccine
    Associated events that occurred: 13,641 ..The number of events resulting
    in death 540"--The Polio Connection of America & Polio vaccine victims:
    http://web.archive.org/web/20001218012700/http://village.ios.com/~w1066/poliov6.html
    Most of the nation's one million insulin-dependent diabetics wouldn't be insulin dependent -- they would be dead.

    Am J Public Health 1985 May;75(5):507-12
    Does a vegetarian diet reduce the occurrence of diabetes?
    Snowdon DA, Phillips RL.
    We propose the hypothesis that a vegetarian diet reduces
    the risk of developing diabetes. Findings that have generated
    this hypothesis are from a population of 25,698 adult White
    Seventh-day Adventists identified in 1960. During 21 years
    of follow-up, the risk of diabetes as an underlying cause of
    death in Adventists was approximately one-half the risk for all
    US Whites. Within the male Adventist population, vegetarians
    had a substantially lower risk than non-vegetarians of diabetes
    as an underlying or contributing cause of death. Within both
    the male and female Adventist populations, the prevalence of
    self-reported diabetes also was lower in vegetarians than in
    non-vegetarians. The associations observed between diabetes
    and meat consumption were apparently not due to confounding
    by over- or under-weight, other selected dietary factors, or
    physical activity. All of the associations between meat
    consumption and diabetes were stronger in males than in females.
    PMID: 3985239 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    60 million Americans would risk death from heart attack, stroke or kidney failure from lack of medication to control their high blood pressure.

    Animal product consumption and mortality because of all
    causes combined, coronary heart disease, stroke, diabetes,
    and cancer in Seventh-day Adventists.
    Snowdon DA.
    Division of Epidemiology, School of Public Health, University
    of Minnesota, Minneapolis.
    This report reviews, contrasts, and illustrates previously published
    findings from a cohort of 27,529 California Seventh-day Adventist
    adults who completed questionnaires in 1960 and were followed
    for mortality between 1960 and 1980. Within this population, meat
    consumption was positively associated with mortality because of all
    causes of death combined (in males), coronary heart disease (in
    males and females), and diabetes (in males). Egg consumption was
    positively associated with mortality because of all causes combined
    (in females), coronary heart disease (in females), and cancers of the
    colon (in males and females combined) and ovary. Milk consumption
    was positively associated with only prostate cancer mortality, and
    cheese consumption did not have a clear relationship with any cause
    of death. The consumption of meat, eggs, milk, and cheese did not
    have negative associations with any of the causes of death investigated.
    PMID: 3046303 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Clin Sci (Lond) 1979 Sep;57(3):285-8
    The effect of high animal protein intake on the risk of calcium
    stone-formation in the urinary tract.
    Robertson WG, Heyburn PJ, Peacock M, Hanes FA, Swaminathan R.
    1. Studies were carried out on six normal male subjects to determine
    the short-term effect of increasing the dietary consumption of animal
    protein on the urinary risk factors for stone-formation, namely, volume,
    pH, calcium oxalate, uric acid and glycosaminoglycans.
    2. An increase of 34 g/day of animal protein in the diet significantly
    increased urinary calcium (23%) and oxalate (24%). Total urinary
    nitrogen increased by an average of 368 mmol/day. The accompanying
    increase in dietary purine (11 mmol of purine nitrogen/day) caused a
    48% increase in the excretion of uric acid.
    3. The overall relative probability of forming stones, calculated from
    a combination of the risk factors, was markedly increased (250%)
    throughout the period of high animal protein ingestion.
    PMID: 573189
    Doctors would have no chemotherapy to save the 70% of children who now survive acute lymphocytic leukemia.

    Do a quick search on Royal Raymonde Rife.
    More than one million Americans would lose vision in at least one eye this year because cataract surgery would be impossible.

    Research shows that increased intake of vitamin C and other antioxidants
    reduces cataract risk. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/439092_3.
    ...and which foods are good sources of vitamin C and other antioxidants?
    Hundreds of thousands of people disabled by strokes or by head or

    See above, and;

    Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Jul;78(1):57-64.
    Intake of fruit and vegetables and the risk of ischemic stroke
    in a cohort of Danish men and women.
    Johnsen SP, Overvad K, Stripp C, Tjonneland A, Husted SE,
    Sorensen HT. Department of Clinical Epidemiology, Aarhus
    University Hospital and Aalborg Hospital, Aarhus, Denmark
    (SPJ and HTS).
    BACKGROUND: Previous studies have suggested that a high
    dietary intake of fruit and vegetables is associated with a reduced
    risk of ischemic stroke. The magnitude of the effect is uncertain,
    and only one study reported data on the intake of specific fruit
    and vegetables and the risk of stroke.
    OBJECTIVE: We examined whether the intake of fruit and
    vegetables is associated with a reduced risk of ischemic stroke,
    with particular attention paid to specific fruit and vegetables and
    subtypes of ischemic stroke.
    DESIGN: In a prospective cohort study of 54,506 men and
    women who were included in the Danish Diet, Cancer, and
    Health study from 1993 to 1997, estimated total intakes of fruit
    and vegetables (in g/d) were extracted from a semiquantitative
    food-frequency questionnaire completed at baseline. Data about
    subjects hospitalized with ischemic stroke were obtained from
    the Danish National Registry of Patients and were verified later
    by record reviews. The follow-up for ischemic stroke ended on
    the date of a first hospital admission for stroke or transient
    ischemic attack, the date of death or emigration, or the end of
    the study, whichever came first.
    RESULTS: We identified 266 cases of ischemic stroke involving
    hospitalization during 168 388 person-years of follow-up (median
    follow-up: 3.09 y; range: 0.02-5.10 y). After adjustment for potential
    confounders, persons in the top quintile of fruit and vegetable intake
    (median: 673 g/d) had a risk ratio of ischemic stroke of 0.72 (95%
    CI: 0.47, 1.12) relative to persons in the bottom quintile of intake
    (median: 147 g/d) (P for trend = 0.04). When comparing the top
    quintile with the bottom quintile, an inverse association was most
    evident for fruit intake (risk ratio: 0.60; 95% CI: 0.38, 0.95; P for
    trend = 0.02). Similar risk estimates were seen for most types of fruit
    and vegetables, although the risks were significant only for citrus fruit.
    CONCLUSION: An increased intake of fruit may reduce the risk
    of ischemic stroke.
    PMID: 12816771
    spinal cord injuries would not benefit from rehabilitation techniques.

    Excellent physiotherapeutic techniques already exist.
    The more than 100,000 people with arthritis who each year receive hip replacements would walk only with great pain and difficulty or be confined to wheelchairs.

    J Altern Complement Med 2002 Feb;8(1):71-5
    Effects of a very low-fat, vegan diet in subjects with
    rheumatoid arthritis.
    McDougall J, Bruce B, Spiller G, Westerdahl J,
    McDougall M. St Helena Hospital, Deer Park, CA, USA.
    OBJECTIVE: To demonstrate the effects of a very low-fat,
    vegan diet on patients with rheumatoid arthritis (RA).
    DESIGN: Single-blind dietary intervention study.
    SUBJECTS AND STUDY INTERVENTIONS: This
    study evaluated the influence of a 4-week, very low-fat
    (approximately 10%), vegan diet on 24 free-living subjects
    with RA, average age, 56 +/- 11 years old. Outcome
    measurements: Prestudy and poststudy assessment of RA
    symptomatology was performed by a rheumatologist blind
    to the study design. Biochemical measures and 4-day diet
    data were also collected. Subjects met weekly for diet
    instruction, compliance monitoring, and progress assessments.
    RESULTS: There were significant (p < 0.001) decreases in fat
    (69%), protein (24%), and energy (22%), and a significant
    increase in carbohydrate (55%) intake. All measures of RA
    symptomatology decreased significantly (p < 0.05), except for
    duration of morning stiffness (p > 0.05). Weight also decreased
    significantly (p < 0.001). At 4 weeks, C-reactive protein
    decreased 16% (ns, p > 0.05), RA factor decreased 10%
    (ns, p > 0.05), while erythrocyte sedimentation rate was
    unchanged (p > 0.05).
    CONCLUSION: This study showed that patients with
    moderate-to-severe RA, who switch to a very low-fat, vegan
    diet can experience significant reductions in RA symptoms.
    PMID: 11890437

    Forsch Komplementarmed Klass Naturheilkd 2001 Aug;8(4):228-31
    [Clinical remission of an HLA B27-positive sacroiliitis on vegan diet]
    [Article in German]
    Huber R, Herdrich A, Rostock M, Vogel T. Ambulanz fur
    Naturheilverfahren und Umweltmedizin, Abteilung Innere Medizin II,
    Universitatsklinik Freiburg.
    BACKGROUND: Positive effects of fasting and vegan diet in
    patients with rheumatic diseases are reported in the literature.
    MEDICAL HISTORY: We present a 33-year-old patient with
    double-sided HLA B27-positive sacroiliitis, which was diagnosed
    by magnetic resonance tomography. Since about 10 years he
    therefore had pain in the iliosacral region. Numerous sessions
    of physiotherapy, a cure treatment, and treatment with sulfasalazine
    and doxycycline were not effective. The patient was dependent on
    the daily intake of the nonsteroidal antirheumatics meloxicam
    2 x 7.5 mg and ibuprofen 400-800 mg and the analgetic tramadol
    50-150 mg, but evening and night pain and morning stiffness
    persisted under this treatment.
    TREATMENT: We recommended a temporary vegan diet,
    i.e. to completely avoid animal fats and proteins.
    COURSE: 3-4 days after changing on vegan diet the complaints
    improved distinctly and persistently. After consumption of meat 6
    weeks later, complaints worsened. Consequent vegan diet again
    resulted in significant improvement of the pain and morning stiffness.
    At follow-up 3 months after the initial contact, tramadol and
    ibuprofen intakes had been stopped, meloxicam had been reduced
    to 1 x 7.5 mg. The patient was almost completely free of complaints.
    CONCLUSIONS: It was demonstrated that in a single case of
    sacroiliitis which was refractory to other treatment, vegan diet
    resulted in a convincingly improvement of complaints.
    7,500 newborns who contract jaundice each year would develop cerebral palsy, now preventable through phototherapy.

    Or healthy parents.
    There would be no kidney dialysis to extend the lives of thousands of patients with end-stage renal disease.

    See above.
    Surgery of any type would be a painful, rare procedure without the development of modern anesthesia allowing artificially induced unconsciousness or local or general insensitivity to pain.

    Shame animals are still forced to suffer horribly in needless experiments.
    Instead of being eradicated, smallpox would continue unchecked and many others would join the two million people already killed by the disease.

    "If vaccines are so effective in preventing disease
    why have epidemics occurred around the world
    following mass vaccination programs? In the
    Philippines for example, "after ten years of
    compulsory inoculation against smallpox (25
    million shots) over 170,000 got smallpox and
    75,000 deaths were recorded between 1911 and
    1920" (from the Townsend Letter for Doctors
    article "Are Vaccines Generally Detrimental to
    the Human Defence System," Feb/Mar 1994).

    "I was working in one of the oldest lung illness
    treatment centres in Germany, and just by chance,
    I looked at the files of those people who had
    fallen ill during the first German epidemic of
    smallpox, in 1947...We had always been told that
    the smallpox vaccination would protect against
    smallpox. And now I could verify, thanks to the
    files and papers, that all of those who had fallen
    ill had been vaccinated. This was very upsetting
    for me." Dr Buchwald, M.D.
    http://www.iol.ie/~creature/Vaccines.htm
    Millions of dogs, cats, and other pets and farm animals would have died from anthrax, distemper, canine parvovirus, feline leukemia, rabies and more than 200 other diseases now preventable thanks to animal research. http://www.ampef.org/research.htm

    ANIMAL LOVERS//a real health hazard, a law that needs changing

    WHAT YOU CAN DO TO CHANGE THIS LAW

    "Important Alert" for all animal lovers who wish to have
    the legal right to choose a safe, effective alternative to drug
    vaccines, please write to your national congressmen in
    Washington D.C. to EXEMPT homeopathy vaccine nosodes
    from the Virus-Serum-Toxin Act of 1913 under article 154a.
    This law is enforced by the USDA.

    Please cover the following points and add any personal views:

    1.The Act is outdated: 1913 was an era when single agent biologic
    vaccines were used and was of some benefit. Today the animal owner
    has no choice but unsafe dangerous multiple complexes of 6-7 agents
    within one vaccine, and 4-5 others in a series given every 2-3 weeks
    apart starting at 3-4 months of age. This is repeated at 6 months and
    then yearly for the rest of the animal's life. This is not needed, many
    have life time immunity after one injection (Canine Hepatitis and
    Leptospirosis) and science has proven that a vaccine containing more
    than two viruses and/or bacteria overwhelm the animal's immune system
    with little or no antibodies being formed for proper protection. Periods
    between vaccinations must be no less than 6 weeks for the immune
    stimulation process to recover in order to respond properly to the next
    vaccination.

    2. The Act perpetrates the very real danger of vaccinosis , which is
    becoming more and more apparent today. Vaccinosis is illness and death
    caused by drug vaccinations. Scientific documentation link vaccinations
    to formation of cancerous growths (sarcomas) in cats vaccinated with
    Feline Leukemia and Rabies vaccines; Clinical Feline Leukemia illness
    can be precipitated by the Feline Leukemia vaccine; and Paralysis and
    Aggressive Behavior development is linked to Rabies Vaccine in dogs.
    Organ pathologies of heart, kidney, liver and immune mediated illnesses
    and some deaths of animals are being linked to vaccinosis. There are
    over 750 website links related to animal vaccinosis authored by
    veterinarians, immunologists, animal owners/breeders and biologists.
    When you do some research and discover that vaccines contain some
    of the most poisonous compounds and elements known to man (and
    foreign organic material that is also toxic when injected into anything),
    i.e. formaldehyde, mercury and aluminum compounds, phenol (carbolic
    acid), borax (ant killer), methanol, dye, acetone (solvent, polish
    remover),disinfectant, glycerine, antifreeze, MSG and several other
    poisons, plus also toxic when injected, animal organ tissue and blood
    (e.g. monkey, cow, chicken, pig, sheep, dog, etc), contaminant animal
    viruses (e.g. SV40, which causes cancer in humans), aborted human
    foetus cells, large foreign proteins, mutated (more virulent) human
    viruses in high doses, bacterial endotoxins, antibiotics, bacteria,
    genetically modified yeast, latex, and animal, bacterial and viral DNA,
    which, when injected, can be incorporated into the recipient's DNA,
    then LOGIC dictates that you question whether violent poisons,
    which by definition are very harmful, are really going to be good for
    any living creature's immune system(?), let alone your tiny infant and
    baby animal with its very immature immune and neurological systems.

    3. There is a safer, effective form of immunization that has been
    documented for over 2000 years in Greece and Europe: the use of
    homeopathic vaccine nosodes. Today many veterinarians in this country,
    Great Britain and Germany are using this preferred method of
    vaccination. Scientific studies have currently been made and proven the
    safety and efficacy of homeopathic vaccine nosodes in England by
    Dr.Christopher Day who proved the use of the Parvo vaccine nosode
    conferred 90% immunity in his dog study with no adverse reactions.
    4. The Act of 1913 is unjust, giving no choice to the American citizen.
    It denies them the right to choose homeopathy vaccine nosodes as a safe
    alternative to drug vaccinations.

    The Virus-Serum-Toxin Act of 1913 must be changed!
    Sincerely, Gloria Dodd DVM
    (http://www.holisticvetpetcare.com)

    <snip propaganda links>
  • Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:16:00 GMT(21)
  • social disease "usual suspect" <aboveground@lawknowledge.org.earth.man> wrote in message
    news:rQ30b.8726$YC.534999@lawknowledge.org.twister.austin.rr.com...
    <..>I don't see any reason why you would attack the credibility of theauthor of the web site, since it contains mostly links from reputablesources and only few lines of introduction. Because that's his modus operandum, the -only- 'argument' he has. Strawman.

    No, it's the truth.
    My argument was much more substantive -- see my response to the OP, skag.

    Oh, we did,- you showed narrow-mindedness bias and ignorance.
    What's *your* MO? "inner earth beings" "hollow earth" that goofy patent for a MANUFACTURED globe your helium-inflated number(s) for feed:beef rain forest destruction Brazil's exports (based on *Argentina's* trade) Stolen French flying saucer. Zapper. Foot massage. Leprechauns. Channeling. Polar fountains. Sun gazing. Chemtrails. AIDS and ebola conspiracy theory. Crop circles.

    Your 'list' contains innacuracies and lies.
    Of course if you would directly accuse the British Royal Society,National Geographic Magazine or American Museum of Natural History with"disinformation", you would show how ignorant and stupid person you are. Apparently, even indirectly. :). You are shown to be an imbecile on a daily basis, and not by what we write -- you're convicted of stupidity by your own posts. The OP is, so far, in the same boat.

    Let's put YOU in the spotlight for a moment, shall we;

    'D'; Look at the newspapers one day and you'll find that our cowardly and murderous so-called soldiers have been dropping bombs on large cities in Iraq killing innocents. You can deny it if you want. Be my guest.

    'U.S'
    Citation, PLEASE. My papers haven't had any such story
    since the war started, I've yet to see or hear or read of any
    evidence supporting such claims.
    (16 July 2003)
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:47:00 GMT(22)
  • "Zakhar" <nospam@lawknowledge.org.donotuse123.com> wrote in message news:8XR%a.8102$z7.891118@lawknowledge.org.wards.force9.net... "pearl" <tea@lawknowledge.org.signguestbook.ie> wrote in message news:bhodrr$2e1$1@lawknowledge.org.kermit.esat.net... WB, Z. Thanks. I've had a good memorable holiday. I'll be back up to speed with the groups shortly, but other things are taking priority at the moment. Your post was interesting, particularly being in a broadsheet newspaper.

    Nice one. :).
    Cheers.
  • Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:43:00 GMT(23)
  • usual suspect wrote: The links I showed hardly any journalism...

    should read "The links I looked at showed hardly any journalism..."
  • Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:31:00 GMT(24)
  • "Derek" <dereknash@lawknowledge.org.btopenworld.com> wrote in message news:bhr7gr$2crit$1@lawknowledge.org.ID-190488.news.uni-berlin.de... "pearl" <tea@lawknowledge.org.signguestbook.ie> wrote in message news:bhr8dk$m6d$1@lawknowledge.org.kermit.esat.net... lying "usual suspect" <aboveground@lawknowledge.org.earth.man> wrote in message news:Jg60b.199249$xg5.26024@lawknowledge.org.twister.austin.rr.com. .. pearl wrote...
    <..> > Let's put YOU in the spotlight for a moment, shall we; > >>Look at the newspapers one day and you'll find >>that our cowardly and murderous so-called >>soldiers have been dropping bombs on large >>cities in Iraq killing innocents. You can deny >>it if you want. Be my guest.

    --restore--
    'U.S'
    Citation, PLEASE. My papers haven't had any such story
    since the war started, I've yet to see or hear or read of any
    evidence supporting such claims.
    (16 July 2003)
    --end restore--

    So much for suspect's sources.
    He has yet to provide any evidence of systematic collateral damage other than a defeated, disgusting UN ambassador who remained Saddam's apologist until Baghdad fell. Then suddenly he agreed that Saddam should've been long deposed. His prattle about civilian deaths also ceased following the fall of Baghdad, just as your hero "Baghdad Bob" suddenly stopped his own feeble-minded propaganda. The fact that you eat up Dreck's vomit and then regurgitate it doesn't make it true. If YOU have evidence of coalition forces committing systematic bombing of civilians, please provide it. Otherwise, you're nothing but a petty demagogue of the shrillest, shallowest order. Adding indifference to injury At least 20,000 civilians were injured in the Iraq war: Why are the occupiers ignoring their suffering and their needs? August 7th 2003 Extraction of media-reported civilian injuries from the Iraq Body Count database and archive of war reports provides evidence of at least 20,000 civilian injuries on top of the maximum reported 7798 deaths. 8,000 of these injuries were in the Baghdad area alone, suggesting that the full, countrywide picture, as with deaths, is yet to emerge. ........' http://www.iraqbodycount.net/editorial_aug0703.htm Civilian deaths in Iraq could be as high as 10,000 Final body count could be biggest since Vietnam war .. AMERICAN guns, bombs and missiles killed more civilians in the recent war in Iraq than in any conflict since Vietnam, according to preliminary assessments carried out by the UN, international aid agencies and independent study groups. - May 23rd http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/archive/23-5-19103-23-48-54.html. Good work. He's a dirty liar, and I want to make that plainly known.

    'suspect' will have his own page soon enough at this rate.
    Shame on you. You completely disgust me, suspect.
  • Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:17:00 GMT(25)
  • <dh_ld@lawknowledge.org.nomail.com> wrote ... On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:13:25 +0100, "pearl" <tea@lawknowledge.org.signguestbook.ie> wrote:Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We ShouldGive Them Rights TooBy Jeremy RifkinThe Guardian - UK8-15-03 [...]So what does all of this portend for the way we treat our fellowcreatures? What about the thousands of animals subjected eachyear to painful laboratory experiments? __________________________________________________ _______ If scientists could replace animal research and testing with methods which did not need to use animals then they would. There are several reasons for this: * Scientists do not like or want to use animals in research. Like the vast majority of people they do not want to see animals suffer unnecessarily. In fact less than 10% of biomedical research uses animals. Unfortunately for much of the work involved in biomedical research there are as yet no working alternative techniques that would allow us to stop using animals. * Biomedical research is producing thousands of new compounds, which may have potential as new drugs. It is much more efficient to screen these compounds using rapid non-animal techniques to test their effectiveness and toxicity. * The very high standards of animal welfare and care required of British research establishments are a contributory factor in making animal research very expensive. If scientists can develop alternatives to using animals it will allow them to divert their limited research funds to other areas of research. [...]
    WITHOUT ANIMAL RESEARCH: Polio would kill or cripple thousands of unvaccinated children and adults this year. Most of the nation's one million insulin-dependent diabetics wouldn't be insulin dependent -- they would be dead. 60 million Americans would risk death from heart attack, stroke or kidney failure from lack of medication to control their high blood pressure. Doctors would have no chemotherapy to save the 70% of children who now survive acute lymphocytic leukemia.
    <snip similar examples>

    It's not clear what you mean to imply by this. If you mean that the basis
    for using insulin and some of the other methods were developed through
    animal research, that is correct, but it evades the point. Insulin
    availability is not dependent on animal research at all. Insulin can be
    produced by recombinant technology--it is not dependent on animals at all.
    The same applies to all the other areas mentioned. Of course much of our
    biomedical knowledge was developed by use of animal experimentation. That
    does not mean that such experimentation was either ethical or necessary.
    It's just the way that things were done in the past. The question of
    whether it is now ethical or necessary is a complex one: IMHO and I think
    the opinion of most scientists and ethicists, it depends on the animal, the
    experiment, and the feasibility of using other methods. But it evades the
    point to say that it's the way research advanced in the past. A lot of
    productive work was accomplished by slaves over the centuries when slavery
    was legal--that didn't make slavery ethical or necessary.
  • Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:02:00 GMT(26)
  • http://www.enn.com/news/2003-09-12/s_8367.asp
  • Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:49:00 GMT(27)
  • lying "usual suspect" <aboveground@lawknowledge.org.earth.man> wrote in message
    news:Jg60b.199249$xg5.26024@lawknowledge.org.twister.austin.rr.com. ..Strawman. No, it's the truth. Not even close.

    Liar.
    My argument was much more substantive -- see my response tothe OP, skag. Oh, we did,- you showed narrow-mindedness bias and ignorance. No, I pointed out the logical fallacy of appealing to authority.

    You ignored over two hundred authoritative reports.
    I also pointed out from your own source that scientists are not in agreement

    We are familiar with your selective editing.
    'Mass Extinction Underway, Majority of Biologists Say'
    http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html
    is the title of the article from which you quote.
    Add;
    "Pay a "researcher" or an "expert witness" enough and
    he'll tell you whatever you want the jury to hear. "
    - 'usual suspect' / 15 July 2003 02:23
    and we get the picture.
    with the RAMPANT SPECULATION that mass extinctions are occurring.

    What it actually says is;
    'Many of the estimates of species loss are extrapolations based
    on the global destruction of rain forests and other rich habitats.'
    http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html

    'extrapolation' does not equate to 'speculation', sophist.
    Your OPINIONS regarding mass extinction are lacking in evidence and support.

    I've provided over 200 links to authoritative reports, while
    you brought the views of a few naysayers, and *my* 'opinions'
    lack support? You lying fool.

    <..> Let's put YOU in the spotlight for a moment, shall we;Look at the newspapers one day and you'll findthat our cowardly and murderous so-calledsoldiers have been dropping bombs on largecities in Iraq killing innocents. You can denyit if you want. Be my guest. He has yet to provide any evidence of systematic collateral damage other than a defeated, disgusting UN ambassador who remained Saddam's apologist until Baghdad fell. Then suddenly he agreed that Saddam should've been long deposed. His prattle about civilian deaths also ceased following the fall of Baghdad, just as your hero "Baghdad Bob" suddenly stopped his own feeble-minded propaganda. The fact that you eat up Dreck's vomit and then regurgitate it doesn't make it true. If YOU have evidence of coalition forces committing systematic bombing of civilians, please provide it. Otherwise, you're nothing but a petty demagogue of the shrillest, shallowest order.

    Adding indifference to injury
    At least 20,000 civilians were injured in the Iraq war: Why are
    the occupiers ignoring their suffering and their needs?
    August 7th 2003
    Extraction of media-reported civilian injuries from the Iraq Body
    Count database and archive of war reports provides evidence of
    at least 20,000 civilian injuries on top of the maximum reported
    7798 deaths. 8,000 of these injuries were in the Baghdad area
    alone, suggesting that the full, countrywide picture, as with deaths,
    is yet to emerge. ........'
    http://www.iraqbodycount.net/editorial_aug0703.htm

    Civilian deaths in Iraq could be as high as 10,000
    Final body count could be biggest since Vietnam war
    ...
    AMERICAN guns, bombs and missiles killed more civilians in
    the recent war in Iraq than in any conflict since Vietnam, according
    to preliminary assessments carried out by the UN, international aid
    agencies and independent study groups.
    - May 23rd
    http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/archive/23-5-19103-23-48-54.html.

    Shame on you. You completely disgust me, suspect.
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:42:00 GMT(28)
  • the village idiot "usual suspect" <aboveground@lawknowledge.org.earth.man> wrote in message
    news:OpP%a.169773$TJ.10095346@lawknowledge.org.twister.austin.rr.co m...
    <..>>>This is the man who said that earth's resources would be depleted by 1985.>>Reference?Not sure *I* can find that one Well then. "We're finally going to get the bill for the Industrial Age. If the projections are right, it's going to be a big one: the ecological collapse of the planet." -- Jeremy Rifkin

    http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:14:00 GMT(29)
  • On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:13:25 +0100, "pearl" <tea@lawknowledge.org.signguestbook.ie> wrote:
    Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We ShouldGive Them Rights TooBy Jeremy RifkinThe Guardian - UK8-15-03

    [...]So what does all of this portend for the way we treat our fellowcreatures? What about the thousands of animals subjected eachyear to painful laboratory experiments?
    __________________________________________________ _______
    If scientists could replace animal research and testing
    with methods which did not need to use animals then
    they would.

    There are several reasons for this:

    * Scientists do not like or want to use animals in research.
    Like the vast majority of people they do not want to see animals
    suffer unnecessarily. In fact less than 10% of biomedical research
    uses animals. Unfortunately for much of the work involved in
    biomedical research there are as yet no working alternative
    techniques that would allow us to stop using animals.

    * Biomedical research is producing thousands of new compounds,
    which may have potential as new drugs. It is much more efficient to
    screen these compounds using rapid non-animal techniques to test
    their effectiveness and toxicity.

    * The very high standards of animal welfare and care required of
    British research establishments are a contributory factor in making
    animal research very expensive. If scientists can develop alternatives
    to using animals it will allow them to divert their limited research funds
    to other areas of research.
    [...]
    http://www.bret.org.uk/noan.htm

    __________________________________________________ _______
    [...]
    From the bald eagle to the red wolf, biomedical research has
    helped bring many species back from the brink of extinction.
    Conservation and captive breeding programs, often using
    fertilization techniques developed for humans, have made it
    possible for these animals to be reintroduced into the wild, and
    today their numbers are growing. Biologists and wildlife
    veterinarians rely on the latest research in reproduction, nutrition,
    toxicology and medicine to build a better future for our wild
    animals.

    In vitro fertilization, sperm banks and artificial insemination were
    all developed to help human couples, but today they also are
    regularly used to ensure the survival of endangered species.
    [...]

    http://fbresearch.org/helpingwildlife.html

    __________________________________________________ _______
    WITHOUT ANIMAL RESEARCH:

    Polio would kill or cripple thousands of unvaccinated children and
    adults this year.

    Most of the nation's one million insulin-dependent diabetics wouldn't
    be insulin dependent -- they would be dead.

    60 million Americans would risk death from heart attack, stroke or
    kidney failure from lack of medication to control their high blood
    pressure.

    Doctors would have no chemotherapy to save the 70% of children who
    now survive acute lymphocytic leukemia.

    More than one million Americans would lose vision in at least one eye
    this year because cataract surgery would be impossible.

    Hundreds of thousands of people disabled by strokes or by head or
    spinal cord injuries would not benefit from rehabilitation techniques.

    The more than 100,000 people with arthritis who each year receive hip
    replacements would walk only with great pain and difficulty or be
    confined to wheelchairs.

    7,500 newborns who contract jaundice each year would develop cerebral
    palsy, now preventable through phototherapy.

    There would be no kidney dialysis to extend the lives of thousands of
    patients with end-stage renal disease.

    Surgery of any type would be a painful, rare procedure without the
    development of modern anesthesia allowing artificially induced
    unconsciousness or local or general insensitivity to pain.

    Instead of being eradicated, smallpox would continue unchecked and many
    others would join the two million people already killed by the disease.

    Millions of dogs, cats, and other pets and farm animals would have died
    from anthrax, distemper, canine parvovirus, feline leukemia, rabies and
    more than 200 other diseases now preventable thanks to animal research.

    http://www.ampef.org/research.htm

    __________________________________________________ _______
    For much more see:

    http://www.fbresearch.org/facts.html
    http://www.rds-online.org.uk/home.html
    http://www.cix.co.uk/~embra/armyths.html
  • Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:12:00 GMT(30)
  • <dh_ld@lawknowledge.org.nomail.com> wrote in message news:28h0kv80i71a2s2f771p3bdem93jlhuc05@lawknowledge.org.4ax.com... On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:13:25 +0100, "pearl" <tea@lawknowledge.org.signguestbook.ie> wrote:Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We ShouldGive Them Rights TooBy Jeremy RifkinThe Guardian - UK8-15-03While much of the talk in big science this past year hascentred on new breakthroughs in biotechnology,nanotechnology, computers and more esoteric questionssuch as the age of our universe, a quieter story has beenunfolding behind the scenes in laboratories around theworld - one whose impact on human perception andour understanding of the world is likely to be even moreprofound. And, strangely, the companies sponsoring theresearch are McDonald's, Burger King, KFC and otherfast food purveyors.Pressured by animal rights activists and by growing publicsupport for the humane treatment of animals, thesecompanies have financed research into, among other things,the emotional, mental and behavioural states of our fellowcreatures. What the researchers are finding is unsettling. Itappears that many of our fellow creatures are more like usthan we had ever imagined. They feel pain, suffer,experience stress, affection, excitement - and even love. Anyone with a dog or cat should be aware of that without having to be told by a study. Are normal people astonished to learn that when animals appear to be displaying excitement, they really are exited? Do most people think they're faking it or something?Studies on pigs' social behaviour at Purdue University in theUS, for example, have found that they crave affection and areeasily depressed if isolated or denied playtime with each other.The lack of mental and physical stimuli can result in deteriorationof health and increased incidence of diseases. The EU has takensuch studies to heart and has outlawed the use of isolating pigstalls by 2012, and mandated their replacement with open-airstalls. Good. [...]Noting the striking similarities in brain anatomy and chemistryof humans and other animals, Steven Siviy, a behaviouralscientist at Gettysburg College in Pennsylvania, asks a questionincreasingly on the minds of other researchers: "If you believein evolution by natural selection, how can you believe that feelingssuddenly appeared, out of the blue, with human beings?" Amazingly enough, there are people stupid enough to believe animals don't experience many emotions.The new findings of researchers are a far cry from the conceptionsespoused by orthodox science. Until very recently, scientists werestill advancing the idea that most creatures behaved by sheer instinct,and that what appeared to be learned behaviour was merelygenetically wired activity. Those phoney animals...pretending to experience emotions when they can't really do it....pretending to learn things even though they can't do that either....dogs just know to "sit" on command by instinct....Now we know that geese have to teachtheir goslings their migration routes. In fact, we are finding out thatlearning is passed on from parent to offspring far more often thannot and that most animals engage in learned experience brought onby continued experimentation and trial-and-error problem-solving.So what does all of this portend for the way we treat our fellowcreatures? What about the thousands of animals subjected eachyear to painful laboratory experiments? Or the millions ofdomestic animals raised under inhumane conditions and destinedfor slaughter and human consumption. Provide them with decent lives and then millions of domestic animals would experience decent lives only because people eat them. And now that you mention it, many animals already do.

    But keeping billions of domestic animals has been, and is, the cause
    of displacement and death of innumerable individual wild animals.
    To give domestic animals currently raised intensively decent lives
    you're going to need -at least- twice the grazing and space currently
    used. How would that provide decent lives for remaining wildlife?
  • Sun, 17 Aug 2003 07:52:00 GMT(31)
  • pearl wrote:
    Our Fellow Creatures Have Feelings - So We ShouldGive Them Rights TooBy Jeremy RifkinThe Guardian - UK8-15-03...

    Did you know the survival rate of crodidiles is about 1 in a 1000? Q:
    What do you think the reason is? A: The other 999 get eaten by other of
    natures' creatures no matter how they feel about it.
  • Leave a Comment Now.

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