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• Tue, 16 Sep 2003 06:03:00 GMT(1)
• Seeker <anon-30263@lawknowledge.org.anon.twwells.com> wrote: In article <3f64cb88@lawknowledge.org.nap.mtholyoke.edu>, Wendy Marsden wrote: Being married to a man is full of challenges because they are so damn weird. OK, guys, can we all laugh at once? Face it -- we're both weird in the eyes of the other.
  
  Hell, other guys seem just as weird to me as women do most of the time. I
  think we can generalize further to "people are weird."
  
  Trajan
• Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:10:00 GMT(2)
• Tai wrote: My point to Jack was that he should be looking at this on an individual level rather than dividing humanity into just two kinds of people.
  
  There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
  - Those who understand Binary; and
  - Those who don't.
  
  In actual fact perhaps something *like* Myers-Briggs provides
  a classification of how many of the genes and memes finally
  balance out into a self-consistent personality.
  
  Of course, as usual, I was barking up the wrong tree. :-)
  
  Woof.
  
  --
  Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@lawknowledge.org.softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
  "The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is
  the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -- Unknown
• Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:11:00 GMT(3)
• On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:38:36 GMT, mbjq@lawknowledge.org.earthlink.net (Emma Anne)
  wrote:
  Jack C Lipton <cupasoup@lawknowledge.org.softhome.net> wrote: Seeker wrote: Wendy Marsden wrote:> Being married to a man is full of challenges because> they are so damn weird. OK, guys, can we all laugh at once? Face it -- we're both weird in the eyes of the other. Any man who truly *understands* a woman (and her drives) is, well... uh... I don't think the universe allows this, does it? Likewise a woman truly *understanding* a man (and his drives) is impossible.Who here feels they truly understand themselves? Not me.
  
  I usually feel she understands me better than I do.
  
  After all these years I feel I understand her pretty damned well, but
  she's still full of surprises.
  
  - Randy
• Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:12:00 GMT(4)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in
  
  Really understanding another individual is _hard_. After all, most of us don't even understand ourselves.
  
  *Understanding* is not the be all and end all. My husband and I certainly
  don't fully understand each other but we are getting better at *accepting*
  each other.
  
  Amy
• Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:51:00 GMT(5)
• Randy Poe <rpoePA@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> writes:
  On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:11:46 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@lawknowledge.org.anon.twwells.com> wrote:In article <3f64cb88@lawknowledge.org.nap.mtholyoke.edu>, Wendy Marsden<wmarsden@lawknowledge.org.mtholyoke.edu> wrote: Being married to a man is full of challenges because they are so damn weird.OK, guys, can we all laugh at once?Face it -- we're both weird in the eyes of the other. Any "Car Talk" fans here? Here's a freely-modified (since I can't remember details) version of a joke they told recently.
  
  I laughed. Not as hard as Tom and Ray when they told it, I'm sure!
  
  I swear half of why they are funny at all is because they are so
  amused by themselves.
• Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:03:00 GMT(6)
• cupasoup@lawknowledge.org.softhome.net (Jack C Lipton) writes:
  Doug Anderson wrote: Jack C Lipton writes: Well... perhaps. I _want_ to understand but, well, I personally don't have a very good track record. It may well be that _you_ can't understand _your wife_. That is different from saing a man can never understand a woman. Do you see that this is different? Well, I have problems understanding driving directions given by someone who's right-handed; a lot of it sounds like gibberish to me. Likewise, I've tried to give directions to right-handed people and have gotten blank stares. Left-handed people seem to be able to understand me (and be understoof by me) better. My wife is ambidextrous so she's got an advantage in being able to comprehend directions from both paws. :-) In any case, back to your point... no, even female co- workers seem to have complications well beyond my ken. Well, the one consistent factor in this is *me*, so maybe (OK, most likely) I just don't have adequate depth of personality to handle all those shades of grey.
  
  Is it really true that you completely understand other men, yet all
  women feel beyond your ken?
  
  Mightn't it be that the things you want to understand about women (in
  general, as opposed to your wife) (a) aren't general at all, but are
  particular to individuals and/or (b) are things you just don't care
  about with respect to men?
• Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:38:00 GMT(7)
• Jack C Lipton <cupasoup@lawknowledge.org.softhome.net> wrote:
  Seeker wrote: Wendy Marsden wrote: Being married to a man is full of challenges because they are so damn weird. OK, guys, can we all laugh at once? Face it -- we're both weird in the eyes of the other. Any man who truly *understands* a woman (and her drives) is, well... uh... I don't think the universe allows this, does it? Likewise a woman truly *understanding* a man (and his drives) is impossible.
  
  Who here feels they truly understand themselves? Not me.
• Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:59:00 GMT(8)
• Doug Anderson wrote: Jack C Lipton writes: Well... perhaps. I _want_ to understand but, well, I personally don't have a very good track record. It may well be that _you_ can't understand _your wife_. That is different from saing a man can never understand a woman. Do you see that this is different?
  
  Well, I have problems understanding driving directions
  given by someone who's right-handed; a lot of it sounds
  like gibberish to me. Likewise, I've tried to give
  directions to right-handed people and have gotten blank
  stares. Left-handed people seem to be able to understand
  me (and be understoof by me) better.
  
  My wife is ambidextrous so she's got an advantage in being
  able to comprehend directions from both paws. :-)
  
  In any case, back to your point... no, even female co-
  workers seem to have complications well beyond my ken.
  
  Well, the one consistent factor in this is *me*, so maybe
  (OK, most likely) I just don't have adequate depth of
  personality to handle all those shades of grey.
  
  --
  Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@lawknowledge.org.softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
  "The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is
  the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -- Unknown
• Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:10:00 GMT(9)
• On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:11:46 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@lawknowledge.org.anon.twwells.com>
  wrote:
  In article <3f64cb88@lawknowledge.org.nap.mtholyoke.edu>, Wendy Marsden<wmarsden@lawknowledge.org.mtholyoke.edu> wrote: Being married to a man is full of challenges because they are so damn weird.OK, guys, can we all laugh at once?Face it -- we're both weird in the eyes of the other.
  
  Any "Car Talk" fans here? Here's a freely-modified (since I can't
  remember details) version of a joke they told recently.
  
  A man finds an old lamp and after he accidentally rubs it, out comes a
  Genie. "Master, you get three wishes" says the genie. Cool! thinks the
  guy. I want to get this right. Hmm...
  
  "OK my first wish is... I want a million dollars". Poof! A million
  dollars appears.
  
  "My second wish is... a new Porsche!" Poof! Brand new Porsche with
  all the features. This is great, he thinks. But he's just been warming
  up for his final wish...
  
  "My third wish is for a bridge from California to Hawaii so I can
  drive my new Porsche all the way there." The genie starts shouting at
  him. "Are you nuts? Do you have any idea what that involves? How many
  support pillars? How deep? How much concrete I gotta come up with?
  Handling the waves and the typhoons, etc, etc, etc"
  
  The guy finally gets the genie calmed down and tells him never mind,
  he'll think of another one. After a long moment of thought, he comes
  up with it: "I want to have perfect understanding of women".
  
  The genie is silent for a very long time. Finally he says, "You want
  four lanes or six on that bridge?"
  
  - Randy
• Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:12:00 GMT(10)
• Doug Anderson wrote: Is it really true that you completely understand other men, yet all women feel beyond your ken?
  
  Y'know, I hadn't considered that aspect. There are
  plenty of males I don't understand _at all_. Too
  man seem to drool too easily.
  
  And, yes, it may be a matter of where my blind spots
  are, too.
  
  It's too easy to focus on "women" as a "class" since
  that's less subject to individual foibles.
  
  <HUMOR>
  Actually, come to think of it, there seems to be a
  fair population of people who don't understand *me*.
  
  Hmmmm... the population of people who seem to
  understand me is rather small, actually. Miniscule.
  I don't _know_ anybody like that. Not even me. :-)
  </HUMOR>
  
  The problem with my humorous aside above is that there
  _is_ more than a mere grain of truth to it... but, at
  this juncture, it seemed funnier than usual.
  
  --
  Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@lawknowledge.org.softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
  "The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is
  the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -- Unknown
• Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:31:00 GMT(11)
• Tai wrote: I don't understand why you use such a strong term as 'alien'. Men are physically different to me but I'm just as likely to find another woman alien in her thought process as I am a man and I've found plenty of women and men with whom I have absolutely no trouble finding common ground.
  
  I'm in a marriage with someone with a diametrically opposite Myers-Briggs
  profile. I often think he's alien. The way he views and approaches the
  world is so completely different than the way I view and interact with the
  world that he comes as a constant surprise to me.
  
  Luckily, I like challenges. I thrive on constantly discovering his point
  of view. I don't take him for granted and I don't assume I know what he
  would want to do or say. Well, maybe a little, but I expect surprises
  whenever I get blase.
  
  It's so sweet when we land in the same place at the same time: this
  morning he said he was putting in an Amazon order and wondered if I wanted
  anything. I said yes, "Jayber" by Wendell Berry. He laughed and said it
  was already on his list. AFAIK neither of us have never heard this book
  mentioned in the other's company. We both came upon it as something we'd
  like to read.
  
  So, to get back to the OP (remember the OP?) my point is that you need to
  value your husband for who he is, respect him in his own right for what
  he's good at, and don't worry about not completely understanding
  him. That's not a requirement for loving him.
  
  Wendy
• Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:23:00 GMT(12)
• Seeker wrote: Wendy Marsden wrote: Being married to a man is full of challenges because they are so damn weird. OK, guys, can we all laugh at once? Face it -- we're both weird in the eyes of the other.
  
  Any man who truly *understands* a woman (and her drives)
  is, well... uh... I don't think the universe allows
  this, does it?
  
  Likewise a woman truly *understanding* a man (and his
  drives) is impossible.
  
  Perhaps it is possible, but then a man would no longer
  understand other _men_ and a woman would seem alien to
  other women.
  
  I don't think it's possible to have a foot on both
  sides of the wall... whoa, what a mental picture...
  
  --
  Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@lawknowledge.org.softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
  "The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is
  the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -- Unknown
• Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:43:00 GMT(13)
• cupasoup@lawknowledge.org.softhome.net (Jack C Lipton) writes:
  Doug Anderson wrote: Jack C Lipton writes: Seeker wrote: > Wendy Marsden wrote: >> Being married to a man is full of challenges because >> they are so damn weird. > > OK, guys, can we all laugh at once? > > Face it -- we're both weird in the eyes of the other. Any man who truly *understands* a woman (and her drives) is, well... uh... I don't think the universe allows this, does it? There you go again Jack. Making "woman" into something unuterrably different. It is no harder to *understand* a woman than to *understand* a man. And John Gray aside, they aren't from different planets. I said *truly* which, in my teeny-tiny mind implied *fully*. This implies that you can understand the _drives_ and urges by feeling them yourself. Until we can swap personalities with the other gender there are things we can't feel.
  
  You still don't get it. The gender isn't the issue. It may be that
  we can't truly understand another person in whatever sense of the word
  "truly" you mean.
  
  But it isn't because men and women are so different from each other.
  Beyond that I was having a little bit of fun playing with the idea, so I had to phrase things to inject a _little_ bit of humor into the subject matter. There are key differences in how intelligence and brain function evolved forming gender-linked traits (beyond the physically obvious).
  
  People like to say this. I think the differences among individuals
  within a gender are much larger than differences between the genders.
  Research backs this up.
  I've joked that nature has required females to think further ahead than males just in terms of mate selection in order to maximize the "success" of offspring, so a female _needs_ to pay attention and weigh more factors than a male. The punch line, of course, is that, as 'the' hunter, all a male needs to do is think like his prey (i.e. "like an animal"). (rimshot) As much as I joke about this I believe there _are_ different priorities burned into the wetware that our personalities ride on. The priorities _can_ be overridden to some simple degrees _but_, even so, would "color" our perceptions. Nature/Evolution is no respecter of Memes; it's the Genes that count. Likewise a woman truly *understanding* a man (and his drives) is impossible. Perhaps it is possible, but then a man would no longer understand other _men_ and a woman would seem alien to other women. I don't think it's possible to have a foot on both sides of the wall... whoa, what a mental picture... The wall is only in your mind. Well... perhaps. I _want_ to understand but, well, I personally don't have a very good track record.
  
  It may well be that _you_ can't understand _your wife_. That is
  different from saing a man can never understand a woman. Do you see
  that this is different?
• Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:25:00 GMT(14)
• cupasoup@lawknowledge.org.softhome.net (Jack C Lipton) writes:
  Doug Anderson wrote: Is it really true that you completely understand other men, yet all women feel beyond your ken? Y'know, I hadn't considered that aspect. There are plenty of males I don't understand _at all_. Too man seem to drool too easily. And, yes, it may be a matter of where my blind spots are, too. It's too easy to focus on "women" as a "class" since that's less subject to individual foibles.
  
  I think, regardless of whether you understand me as a person, (or I
  you), you are getting my point.
  
  You know the joke "there are two classes of people in the world; those
  that divide people into classes and those that don't"?
  
  I think dividing people into classes is generally a mistake. I think
  it is an especially egregious mistake when you use physical criteria
  (e.g. gender, race, skin color, etc.) to divide into classes that you
  suppose to be emotionally or intellectually distinct.
  <HUMOR> Actually, come to think of it, there seems to be a fair population of people who don't understand *me*. Hmmmm... the population of people who seem to understand me is rather small, actually. Miniscule. I don't _know_ anybody like that. Not even me. :-) </HUMOR>
  
  Well, here's something we agree on. No, I didn't mean the flip thing,
  but I also feel like few people understand me.
  
  My wife, to some decent extent. My kids, to some extent by dint of
  years of rigorous training! Maybe my parents to some extent. One or
  two friends.
  The problem with my humorous aside above is that there _is_ more than a mere grain of truth to it... but, at this juncture, it seemed funnier than usual.
  
  It isn't _so_ bad if there is truth to it. Really understanding
  another individual is _hard_. After all, most of us don't even
  understand ourselves.
• Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:53:00 GMT(15)
• Wendy Marsden wrote: Tai wrote: I don't understand why you use such a strong term as 'alien'. Men are physically different to me but I'm just as likely to find another woman alien in her thought process as I am a man and I've found plenty of women and men with whom I have absolutely no trouble finding common ground. I'm in a marriage with someone with a diametrically opposite Myers-Briggs profile. I often think he's alien. The way he views and approaches the world is so completely different than the way I view and interact with the world that he comes as a constant surprise to me.
  
  I understand what you are saying, Wendy.
  
  My point to Jack was that he should be looking at this on an individual
  level rather than dividing humanity into just two kinds of people.
  
  Tai
• Mon, 15 Sep 2003 04:34:00 GMT(16)
• Doug Anderson wrote: Jack C Lipton writes: Seeker wrote: Wendy Marsden wrote:> Being married to a man is full of challenges because> they are so damn weird. OK, guys, can we all laugh at once? Face it -- we're both weird in the eyes of the other. Any man who truly *understands* a woman (and her drives) is, well... uh... I don't think the universe allows this, does it? There you go again Jack. Making "woman" into something unuterrably different. It is no harder to *understand* a woman than to *understand* a man. And John Gray aside, they aren't from different planets.
  
  I said *truly* which, in my teeny-tiny mind implied *fully*.
  This implies that you can understand the _drives_ and urges
  by feeling them yourself. Until we can swap personalities
  with the other gender there are things we can't feel.
  
  Beyond that I was having a little bit of fun playing with
  the idea, so I had to phrase things to inject a _little_
  bit of humor into the subject matter.
  
  There are key differences in how intelligence and brain
  function evolved forming gender-linked traits (beyond the
  physically obvious).
  
  I've joked that nature has required females to think
  further ahead than males just in terms of mate selection
  in order to maximize the "success" of offspring, so a
  female _needs_ to pay attention and weigh more factors
  than a male.
  
  The punch line, of course, is that, as 'the' hunter, all a
  male needs to do is think like his prey (i.e. "like an
  animal"). (rimshot)
  
  As much as I joke about this I believe there _are_ different
  priorities burned into the wetware that our personalities
  ride on. The priorities _can_ be overridden to some simple
  degrees _but_, even so, would "color" our perceptions.
  
  Nature/Evolution is no respecter of Memes; it's the Genes
  that count.
  Likewise a woman truly *understanding* a man (and his drives) is impossible. Perhaps it is possible, but then a man would no longer understand other _men_ and a woman would seem alien to other women. I don't think it's possible to have a foot on both sides of the wall... whoa, what a mental picture... The wall is only in your mind.
  
  Well... perhaps. I _want_ to understand but, well, I
  personally don't have a very good track record.
  
  Look, I carry some traits best regarded as "feminine" when
  measured against the socially-defined baseline of maleness
  while my wife carries some "masculine" traits... though
  these don't go "all the way to the bone", so some memetic
  evolution _is_ possible, but this will be diluted so will
  not fully carry over to the next generation.
  
  Memes have _some_ measure of inter-generational contagion
  but evolve faster.
  
  --
  Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@lawknowledge.org.softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
  "The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is
  the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -- Unknown
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