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• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:57:00 GMT(1)
• "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes:
  "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:py4qgud91s.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes: (snip) I agree with you, as far as it goes. But how do you change habits of 15 years? I am thinking something along the lines of; honey for 11 years I have been listening to you complain about what I cook you for dinner. I am not going to be a short order cook anymore. If you do not like what I prepared, I suggest you go get a bowl of cereal or something. But then she had better have a thick skin to listen to him whine for some time until the new habit is established. Walking in that house would be like walking in a mine field for some time. Isn't it alreay? She feels like she's tried everything, but maybe she has yet to try actually standing up for herself and setting boundaries. Her current life sounds unhealthy (for her, their children, and for that matter, probably for her husband). She can't make him change. But she could change her behavior and refuse to cave in to disrespectful behavior. I defintely don't disagree. I was actually asking you for details on *how*. HOW does she break the habits of all these years.
  
  Oh. Sorry!
  
  I don't know. I think she just has to start. She'll need a lot of
  support, and she won't get it from her husband. One of the reasons I
  think counseling (for her) is in order.
  
  Doug
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:48:00 GMT(2)
• On 02 Feb 2005 13:57:55 -0800, Doug Anderson
  <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote:
  "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:py4qgud91s.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes: (snip)> I agree with you, as far as it goes. But how do you change habits of 15> years? I am thinking something along the lines of; honey for 11 years I> have> been listening to you complain about what I cook you for dinner. I am not> going to be a short order cook anymore. If you do not like what I> prepared,> I suggest you go get a bowl of cereal or something. But then she had> better> have a thick skin to listen to him whine for some time until the new> habit> is established. Walking in that house would be like walking in a mine> field> for some time. Isn't it alreay? She feels like she's tried everything, but maybe she has yet to try actually standing up for herself and setting boundaries. Her current life sounds unhealthy (for her, their children, and for that matter, probably for her husband). She can't make him change. But she could change her behavior and refuse to cave in to disrespectful behavior. I defintely don't disagree. I was actually asking you for details on *how*. HOW does she break the habits of all these years.Oh. Sorry!I don't know. I think she just has to start. She'll need a lot ofsupport, and she won't get it from her husband. One of the reasons Ithink counseling (for her) is in order. Doug
  
  It's funny. I think I got more out of the solo counseling sessions
  then I ever did with my wife. One I totally broke down and it felt
  really good to let it out. It certainly helped in the short term.
  
  All these questions about unhappy and unhealthy marriages. I'm just
  wondering why so many of us stay for so long. Is it the kids? Bill
  will have you think people just don't have it in them any longer for
  the long haul. Is that what it is?
  
  I feel bad for you Zorra. I often too feel disrespected but most
  often, it's under appreciated. I suppose they can be similar.
  
  --Brian
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 19:42:00 GMT(3)
• "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@lawknowledge.org.bigpond.com> wrote in message
  news:hGdMd.145465$K7.124447@lawknowledge.org.news-server.bigpond.net.au... Don't know. My current methods generally end up in arguments that get us nowhere. Do you have any suggestions? One of my favourites is "speak the hand 'cos the ears aren't listening". Another one, when DH is arguing with me and trying to convince me that I am wrong and he is right, is to say "This discussion is going nowhere and I refuse to engage in it anymore". If he continues to try to discuss it I walk away or put my fingers in my ears and sing loudly. :) I have come to the conclusion that my DH will only process my arguments and consider what I have to say if he has a day or so to think about it. Humour works well too.:) Amy
  
  LOL, I can see that! It is true that he never seems receptive when I try to
  talk to him, but sometimes it seems to have had an effect later. But even
  then he would never come back and say, "About what you were saying
  yesterday, I see your point." Or anything. It's just that sometimes his
  grumpiness seems to lessen, or he lays off about something in particular.
  
  Zorra
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 20:55:00 GMT(4)
• Zorra wrote: "Stephanie Stowe" wrote
  <SNIP> not strong, not by any stretch. But the counselor could possibly help you find ways to move thigns within your marriage in directions you would like them to go, or help you decide what you want to do if leaving is something that you have considered. I've considered leaving, but thus far have rejected it. It doesn't seem to be worth all the financial and emotional upheaval, as well as the practical difficulties, just for the *hope* that one day I might be happier. My life, except for his disapproval is a good one. I like my home, my kids, my friends, and the whole niche we fit into. If DH hasn't been in one of his sullen moods that day, I'm pretty happy. And DH is a good man, a good friend, a good dad, a good worker -- the only thing he isn't good at IMHO is being a husband.
  
  And he probably knows you won't leave or put your foot
  down so he has no incentive to change.
  
  Seems to me that until you love you, he's not going to.
  Zorra
  
  - Michaela
• Fri, 04 Feb 2005 06:11:00 GMT(5)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:36gadoF51gtlaU2@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:36evruF4deg4fU6@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... Zorra and Mr Zorra are not at a point where they can _have_ productive discussions. That point doesn't come until Mr. Zorra realizes it is necessary to be more respectful. Since lines of communication are not actually open, there is no need to "keep them open." Every now and again we manage a good discussion. There was one a few weeks ago where I told him that I felt like he was trying to act as CEO in this marriage. He claimed it was more like a job share, then asked, "What would you do if your job share partner didn't hold up their end of the bargain?" I answered that I would not feel unilaterally qualified to determine what the goals were. And that I would examine said partner's "failures" to see if they really affected the bottom line, or if they only bugged me. He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list. Maybe I should go through the exercise with him though. It might be enlightening. Well, I can understand why you resisted. But it seems like the sort of exercise that could have been worthwhile.
  
  That's not what *I* read at all. It sounds like further opening the door to
  his micromanaging *her* affairs and dictating how she handles *her*
  business.
• Fri, 04 Feb 2005 10:54:00 GMT(6)
• "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> wrote in message
  news:36he9qF533eb4U1@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... I guess I am the only one, but this approach seems way wrong to me. You do not have to prove to him that you are valuable. You do not have to prove to him that what is important to you IS important. And he does not have the right to micromanage your job according to his wishes. And families are not supposed to be run on a balance sheet with his and her "work equity" balancing to the penny. Starting down that road just sounds like a way to add more arguments since there cannot be equity when the game is really about proving how much righter you are, whcih is what I really think your husband is about.
  
  Not the only one Stephanie. I agree with you.
  
  Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 19:35:00 GMT(7)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:36evruF4deg4fU6@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... Zorra and Mr Zorra are not at a point where they can _have_ productive discussions. That point doesn't come until Mr. Zorra realizes it is necessary to be more respectful. Since lines of communication are not actually open, there is no need to "keep them open."
  
  Every now and again we manage a good discussion. There was one a few weeks
  ago where I told him that I felt like he was trying to act as CEO in this
  marriage. He claimed it was more like a job share, then asked, "What would
  you do if your job share partner didn't hold up their end of the bargain?"
  I answered that I would not feel unilaterally qualified to determine what
  the goals were. And that I would examine said partner's "failures" to see
  if they really affected the bottom line, or if they only bugged me.
  
  He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we
  were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons.
  First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems
  already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and
  when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list.
  
  Maybe I should go through the exercise with him though. It might be
  enlightening.
  
  Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 20:02:00 GMT(8)
• Zorra wrote:
  He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list.
  
  Do you mean he doesn't value your "nurturing" or does he think it just
  isn't that much work?
  
  How about you suggest that each one of you make his/her own list and put
  everything that they think has to be done, and then compare the lists
  and only pick the items that are on both lists. That way if he has an
  item on his list that you don't agree with, it can be negotiated with an
  item on your list that he doesn't agree with! It may also make him
  realize how it feels when someone else assigns things to him that he
  didn't volunteer for.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:59:00 GMT(9)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in You know, this is one of the biggest signs of hope I've seen for us. He never once apologized in the first decade of our marriage. The closest he came was "I'm sorry that you...." He actually has apologized at least twice within the last year.
  
  :)))))
  
  Amy
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 10:28:00 GMT(10)
• "Dave in Lake Villa" <DaveInLakeVilla@lawknowledge.org.webtv.net> wrote in message
  news:23616-42022F44-13@lawknowledge.org.storefull-3233.bay.webtv.net... 'It was many years ago that I first became convinced that he has no respect for me.' ME: DId you get these indicators before you got married by chance ?
  
  Of course I did -- I just didn't recognize them at the time.
  'But mainly what seemed to happen is that DH would sit in the room and put in his time, and as soon as we left, he'd forget everything the counselor had said.' ME: He has built up resentment which needs dealing with.
  
  I'm sure we both do.
  You both have declined into being critical toward each other and its gotton worse. You will both need to see value in your family, deal with pentup resentments that have a hold of you, otherwise, your marriage is doomed . Im sure you already know what im saying here, and i hope you can both make some serious changes.
  
  Here's the problem. He and I both know that things aren't right. We both
  know that *something* needs to be done to fix them. But we can never seem
  to get on the same page about it. He's not a talker, so I'm the only one
  that ever brings up the subject of our relationship, and then all I get is,
  "I've tried and tried, and I'm sick of trying." And from his POV, I'm sure
  he has tried, but I didn't realize it at the time.
  
  Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:32:00 GMT(11)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes:
  <michaela> wrote in message news:t6adnRTXStd_M5zfRVn-iw@lawknowledge.org.is.co.za... Zorra wrote: "Stephanie Stowe" wrote <SNIP>> not strong, not by any stretch. But the counselor could possibly> help you find ways to move thigns within your marriage in directions> you would like them to go, or help you decide what you want to do if> leaving is something that you have considered. I've considered leaving, but thus far have rejected it. It doesn't seem to be worth all the financial and emotional upheaval, as well as the practical difficulties, just for the *hope* that one day I might be happier. My life, except for his disapproval is a good one. I like my home, my kids, my friends, and the whole niche we fit into. If DH hasn't been in one of his sullen moods that day, I'm pretty happy. And DH is a good man, a good friend, a good dad, a good worker -- the only thing he isn't good at IMHO is being a husband. And he probably knows you won't leave or put your foot down so he has no incentive to change. Maybe so, but it's not like I can threaten to leave just to try to make him change. Or, at least, I don't think he'd take it seriously until I handed him the key to an apartment and said, "Get out" at which point I'd better be ready for him to call my bluff. Seems to me that until you love you, he's not going to. What do you mean by this? Why do you think I don't?
  
  I don't know about Michaela, but my impression is that if a person
  responds to disrespectful treatment by either doing what is requested,
  or by trying to justify his or herself, it is a sign that he or she
  needs the approval from the disrespectful person.
  
  If you think well of yourself, you are much less dependent on approval
  from others.
  
  Call that self-love or not, as you wish.
  
  Doug
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:53:00 GMT(12)
• "Joy" <joy@lawknowledge.org.joydoesntlikespam.com> wrote in message
  news:_VeMd.5950$OK2.287@lawknowledge.org.fe03.lga... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message news:tIidnX7Qy7Tc453fRVn-tg@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... Okay, a couple of people have suggested that with the number of issues I bring up, I really ought to have my own thread. So, here it is. Hi, Zorra, I've put in a few things below: Some of the things DH is insistant upon are ludicrous. For example, we live on a dead end street, about a 1/4 mile from the cul-de-sac. The bus passes our house, turns around in the cul-de-sac, and comes back. I usually have the kids out there early enough that they board on the way down the street. Every once in a while we're running a few minutes late, and we catch it on the way back. DH considers this unacceptable. It's rude to the bus driver to make her stop twice (actually, she doesn't stop on the way down if no one is there), and it teaches our children that it's okay to be late and to make other people wait on you. The counselor pointed out that if the bus driver has a problem with me, it's up to her to bring it up. Since it's my job to get the kids to school, he shouldn't quibble about it with me. If it were me, my solution would be to just put the kids on the bus on the second pass *every* day. That way, the first pass by alerts them that the bus is coming, and they should never miss it. Also, this would meet your husbands desire for consistency, and also meet your desire for this issue to never come up again... DH is convinced I don't do my share around the house. I used to about kill myself trying to please him, but it never worked. He loves words like "gross" and "disgusting". Once he said the refrigerator was disgusting. I go to see what he's talking about, and it was some dried milk flakes on the shelf. 5 seconds with a damp sponge and it was taken care of. Maybe this isn't so much a suggestion about what to say, as it is suggesting an alternate way for you to think about it - but my approach would be to say "if it is up to me to clean the refrigerator, then it is up to me to decide when it is dirty enough to be cleaned. You're stepping on my toes here." Dinner has always been a huge bone of contention at our house. He likes a much larger variety of foods than I do. Because of that, he takes the superior stance. *I* am the picky one, *he* is the normal one, so therefore I'm obligated to serve him what he wants. There are many nights that I prepare meals that I don't eat. Yet, if I try to prepare spaghetti or lasagna, which he will eat but are not his favorites, he gets upset. I get away with one or the other at most once a month. In fact, lately he has been refusing to eat them at all, saying that since I don't have to eat the dinners I don't like, he shouldn't have to either. And of course, I'm obligated then to fix the meal he *does* like, since I'm the cook. No, you are NOT obligated to fix whatever it is he is whining about. I think it is good to consider the whole family when it comes to meal planning. One approach might be to decree that the cook is going to consider everybody's preferences one night a week - so maybe Monday is his night, Tuesday is your night, Wednesday is kid #1s night, Thursday is kid #2 - make it a real family thing...not saying you have to have macaroni and cheese every Wednesday - just that on Wednesday, just to use Kid 1 as an example, Kid 1 can count on having *something* he or she likes. On Monday hubby can count on a favorite, on Tuesday you can count on a fovorite, etc. You don't have to do it that way, of course - but my point is, it is legitimate to consider *everybody's* preferences. And of course, there are the children. He completely discounts any bonding time I spend with them. He underestimates the time I spend with them on school activities and projects. And doesn't acknowledge the time and effort I put into their social growth. Worse, he insinuates that I am not a good mother. That I set a bad example for them. The bus thing is one example. Another was when DD was trying to learn to ride a bike. I tool her over to my neighbor's and asked if she could practice on their flat driveway. They said sure, anytime. DH saw us over there, and actually came all the way over and asked me if I'd asked permission before using their driveway. Along about this point, I'd be thinking "eat sh**". But I probably wouldn't say it.
  
  I *would* say it. I missed that lovely paragraph.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 08:36:00 GMT(13)
• Stephanie Stowe <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> wrote:
  Dinner has always been a huge bone of contention at our house. He likes a much larger variety of foods than I do. Because of that, he takes the superior stance. *I* am the picky one, *he* is the normal one, so therefore I'm obligated to serve him what he wants. Don't play this game. My wife and I share cooking. I cook what pleases me (yes, I like to please her too, but if I make something she doesn't like, I _certainly don't jump up to make an alternative), and she cooks what pleases her. I agree with you, as far as it goes. But how do you change habits of 15 years? I am thinking something along the lines of; honey for 11 years I have been listening to you complain about what I cook you for dinner. I am not going to be a short order cook anymore. If you do not like what I prepared, I suggest you go get a bowl of cereal or something. But then she had better have a thick skin to listen to him whine for some time until the new habit is established. Walking in that house would be like walking in a mine field for some time.
  
  Zorra, if you are going to do this, I strongly recommend reading a book
  called "The Dance of Anger" first. Because you are going to get some
  *fierce* "change-back" behavoirs, and you need to know how to maintain
  your boundaries - before you try to set them up.
• Fri, 04 Feb 2005 06:10:00 GMT(14)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:bN-dnaHg_f7vcJ_fRVn-rQ@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:36evruF4deg4fU6@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... Zorra and Mr Zorra are not at a point where they can _have_ productive discussions. That point doesn't come until Mr. Zorra realizes it is necessary to be more respectful. Since lines of communication are not actually open, there is no need to "keep them open." Every now and again we manage a good discussion. There was one a few weeks ago where I told him that I felt like he was trying to act as CEO in this marriage. He claimed it was more like a job share, then asked, "What would you do if your job share partner didn't hold up their end of the bargain?" I answered that I would not feel unilaterally qualified to determine what the goals were. And that I would examine said partner's "failures" to see if they really affected the bottom line, or if they only bugged me.
  
  God Damn. That was GOOD. Way to go.
  He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it.
  
  He probably means a shopping list of chores that YOU need to do.
  
  I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list.
  
  What does he feel should be on the list that is not being done? And what is
  the impact on him if they are not done? Like, if he thinks that there shalt
  not be any dirty laundry in the basket ever, well I am sorry screw him. He
  IS involved in the family. But he is not the only standard setter. The fact
  that he lives in the family does not mean that his is the ONLY say in how
  and when things are done.
  Maybe I should go through the exercise with him though. It might be enlightening.
  
  Send him to this newsgroup where he can see people telling you to drop his
  sorry *** like a hot rock.
  
  I am sorry Zorra, but when I get frustrated I get angry.
  Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 19:22:00 GMT(15)
• "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> wrote in message
  news:36etioF3ouhs0U1@lawknowledge.org.individual.net...
  You do NOT have to leave him or threaten to leave him to try to change these patterns, though in the meantime I would not accpept an invitation to visit at your house, if you get my drift.
  
  I think you'd be safe visiting. We've been fighting pretty good for the
  past year and a half now, and have still managed to hold it together in
  public. :-)
  
  Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 20:02:00 GMT(16)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes:
  "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:36evruF4deg4fU6@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... Zorra and Mr Zorra are not at a point where they can _have_ productive discussions. That point doesn't come until Mr. Zorra realizes it is necessary to be more respectful. Since lines of communication are not actually open, there is no need to "keep them open." Every now and again we manage a good discussion. There was one a few weeks ago where I told him that I felt like he was trying to act as CEO in this marriage. He claimed it was more like a job share, then asked, "What would you do if your job share partner didn't hold up their end of the bargain?" I answered that I would not feel unilaterally qualified to determine what the goals were. And that I would examine said partner's "failures" to see if they really affected the bottom line, or if they only bugged me. He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list. Maybe I should go through the exercise with him though. It might be enlightening.
  
  Well, I can understand why you resisted. But it seems like the sort
  of exercise that could have been worthwhile.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:50:00 GMT(17)
• "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@lawknowledge.org.bigpond.com> wrote in message
  news:hGdMd.145465$K7.124447@lawknowledge.org.news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message news:hKadnfN4xeQNsZzfRVn-sg@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:dvpszieqj7.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes: Well, regardless of whether he loves you, it is clear that he doesn't treat you with respect. Having said that, I want to ask the rhetorical question: how can you change the way you behave towards him so that you insist on being treated with more respect? Don't know. My current methods generally end up in arguments that get us nowhere. Do you have any suggestions? One of my favourites is "speak the hand 'cos the ears aren't listening". Another one, when DH is arguing with me and trying to convince me that I am wrong and he is right, is to say "This discussion is going nowhere and I refuse to engage in it anymore". If he continues to try to discuss it I walk away or put my fingers in my ears and sing loudly. :)
  
  I understand refusing to argue pointlessly. But I do not understand how to
  do this, while keeping the lines of communication open for productive
  discussion. And in the heat, how do you tell the difference? I *know* my DH
  and I do this. But I will be dipped if I know how. We do have 2 people
  trying though. One word of, I feel you are attacking me or something, and we
  pause and apologize and decide if we want to resume the conversation now or
  later.
  I have come to the conclusion that my DH will only process my arguments and consider what I have to say if he has a day or so to think about it. Humour works well too.:) Amy
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 05:28:00 GMT(18)
• "jbrianchamberlin" <jbrianchamberlin@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:q68401dpveeohmg4pstcbq5juvki86s22r@lawknowledge.org.4ax.com... On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:32:34 -0500, "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote:"jbrianchamberlin" <jbrianchamberlin@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in messagenews:cm1301pao5qt336jg00766e4n23or7h61h@lawknowledge.org.4ax .com... It's really a shame. I think a lot of problems between married couples can be fixed easily if BOTH parties are willing to make an effort. I'm just feeling like I'm getting that effort from my wife. Sorry to hear about your friends, Doug. --BrianBrian,I hope you meant what you said above and didn't just leave out the "not"(I'm just *not* feeling like I'm getting that effort from my wife). Ifsheseems to be putting forth some effort now, that's great and I'm happy foryou.Zorra Oh right.. I forgot the NOT. =) --Brian
  
  Ah, bummer.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 06:03:00 GMT(19)
• 'It was many years ago that I first became convinced that he has no
  respect for me.'
  
  ME: DId you get these indicators before you got married by chance ?
  
  'But mainly what seemed to happen is that DH would sit in the room and
  put in his time, and as soon as we left, he'd forget everything the
  counselor had said.'
  
  ME: He has built up resentment which needs dealing with.
  
  You both have declined into being critical toward each other and its
  gotton worse. You will both need to see value in your family, deal with
  pentup resentments that have a hold of you, otherwise, your marriage is
  doomed . Im sure you already know what im saying here, and i hope you
  can both make some serious changes.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:16:00 GMT(20)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:WJGdnXVJbOloup_fRVn-uQ@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... <michaela> wrote in message news:t6adnRTXStd_M5zfRVn-iw@lawknowledge.org.is.co.za... Zorra wrote: "Stephanie Stowe" wrote <SNIP>> not strong, not by any stretch. But the counselor could possibly> help you find ways to move thigns within your marriage in directions> you would like them to go, or help you decide what you want to do if> leaving is something that you have considered. I've considered leaving, but thus far have rejected it. It doesn't seem to be worth all the financial and emotional upheaval, as well as the practical difficulties, just for the *hope* that one day I might be happier. My life, except for his disapproval is a good one. I like my home, my kids, my friends, and the whole niche we fit into. If DH hasn't been in one of his sullen moods that day, I'm pretty happy. And DH is a good man, a good friend, a good dad, a good worker -- the only thing he isn't good at IMHO is being a husband. And he probably knows you won't leave or put your foot down so he has no incentive to change. Maybe so, but it's not like I can threaten to leave just to try to make him change. Or, at least, I don't think he'd take it seriously until I handed him the key to an apartment and said, "Get out" at which point I'd better be ready for him to call my bluff. Seems to me that until you love you, he's not going to. What do you mean by this? Why do you think I don't?
  
  Some people think, though I do not happen to be one of them, that if you
  allow someone to walk on you that you must have a low self esteem to the
  point where even you don't like yourself. What I often see is a nice person
  trying to apply their values of caring and loving getting stuck in a pattern
  where they are trying to be caring and loving, expecting reciprocity from
  their dearest love. But not everyone has the same capacity or understanding
  of caring, so they take advantage. Over time, a pattern like yours can
  develop.
  
  It seems like blaming the victim to say that since you do not stand up for
  yourself, your husband has no reason to change. And I suppose, to some
  extent it is. But the truth seems to be, whether fair or not, if you wan to
  change your spouse's behavior, you have to provide the motivation from his
  perspective to want to change. In my opinion, it *should* be enough to say
  to the supposed love of your life, I am unhappy and I need your help. But
  alas, we are all only human and it often does not work. So instead, you have
  to provide the motivation in the form of, I have had enough of this bad
  treatment and I am not going to take it anymore.
  
  You do NOT have to leave him or threaten to leave him to try to change these
  patterns, though in the meantime I would not accpept an invitation to visit
  at your house, if you get my drift.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 19:35:00 GMT(21)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:36evruF4deg4fU6@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... Zorra and Mr Zorra are not at a point where they can _have_ productive discussions. That point doesn't come until Mr. Zorra realizes it is necessary to be more respectful. Since lines of communication are not actually open, there is no need to "keep them open."
  
  Every now and again we manage a good discussion. There was one a few weeks
  ago where I told him that I felt like he was trying to act as CEO in this
  marriage. He claimed it was more like a job share, then asked, "What would
  you do if your job share partner didn't hold up their end of the bargain?"
  I answered that I would not feel unilaterally qualified to determine what
  the goals were. And that I would examine said partner's "failures" to see
  if they really affected the bottom line, or if they only bugged me.
  
  He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we
  were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons.
  First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems
  already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and
  when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list.
  
  Maybe I should go through the exercise with him though. It might be
  enlightening.
  
  Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 20:02:00 GMT(22)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes:
  "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:36evruF4deg4fU6@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... Zorra and Mr Zorra are not at a point where they can _have_ productive discussions. That point doesn't come until Mr. Zorra realizes it is necessary to be more respectful. Since lines of communication are not actually open, there is no need to "keep them open." Every now and again we manage a good discussion. There was one a few weeks ago where I told him that I felt like he was trying to act as CEO in this marriage. He claimed it was more like a job share, then asked, "What would you do if your job share partner didn't hold up their end of the bargain?" I answered that I would not feel unilaterally qualified to determine what the goals were. And that I would examine said partner's "failures" to see if they really affected the bottom line, or if they only bugged me. He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list. Maybe I should go through the exercise with him though. It might be enlightening.
  
  Well, I can understand why you resisted. But it seems like the sort
  of exercise that could have been worthwhile.
• Fri, 04 Feb 2005 10:54:00 GMT(23)
• "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> wrote in message
  news:36he9qF533eb4U1@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... I guess I am the only one, but this approach seems way wrong to me. You do not have to prove to him that you are valuable. You do not have to prove to him that what is important to you IS important. And he does not have the right to micromanage your job according to his wishes. And families are not supposed to be run on a balance sheet with his and her "work equity" balancing to the penny. Starting down that road just sounds like a way to add more arguments since there cannot be equity when the game is really about proving how much righter you are, whcih is what I really think your husband is about.
  
  Not the only one Stephanie. I agree with you.
  
  Zorra
• Fri, 04 Feb 2005 06:10:00 GMT(24)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:bN-dnaHg_f7vcJ_fRVn-rQ@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:36evruF4deg4fU6@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... Zorra and Mr Zorra are not at a point where they can _have_ productive discussions. That point doesn't come until Mr. Zorra realizes it is necessary to be more respectful. Since lines of communication are not actually open, there is no need to "keep them open." Every now and again we manage a good discussion. There was one a few weeks ago where I told him that I felt like he was trying to act as CEO in this marriage. He claimed it was more like a job share, then asked, "What would you do if your job share partner didn't hold up their end of the bargain?" I answered that I would not feel unilaterally qualified to determine what the goals were. And that I would examine said partner's "failures" to see if they really affected the bottom line, or if they only bugged me.
  
  God Damn. That was GOOD. Way to go.
  He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it.
  
  He probably means a shopping list of chores that YOU need to do.
  
  I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list.
  
  What does he feel should be on the list that is not being done? And what is
  the impact on him if they are not done? Like, if he thinks that there shalt
  not be any dirty laundry in the basket ever, well I am sorry screw him. He
  IS involved in the family. But he is not the only standard setter. The fact
  that he lives in the family does not mean that his is the ONLY say in how
  and when things are done.
  Maybe I should go through the exercise with him though. It might be enlightening.
  
  Send him to this newsgroup where he can see people telling you to drop his
  sorry *** like a hot rock.
  
  I am sorry Zorra, but when I get frustrated I get angry.
  Zorra
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:49:00 GMT(25)
• "*Calinda*" <CalindaDotLetterS@lawknowledge.org.gmailRemove.com> wrote in message
  news:Xns95F1656A13B3119599491@lawknowledge.org.130.133.1.4... I could feel my stomach tighening and my jaw clenching while reading this. {{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}} -- Cal~ Calinda dot Letter S at Gmail dot com
  
  Aw, thanks Cal!
  
  Zorra
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:08:00 GMT(26)
• "*Calinda*" <CalindaDotLetterS@lawknowledge.org.gmailRemove.com> wrote in message
  news:Xns95F1A196EBF9819599491@lawknowledge.org.130.133.1.4... On Wed 02 Feb 2005 02:35:35p, Stephanie Stowe wrote: I, personally, don't think you should get an outside the home job unless you want an outside the home job. It does not seem to me that this would be condusive to the goals that Emma mentioned, giving you independenc and a sense of accomplishment, unless they would give *you* that indepenance and sense. If it just makes you have one more thing to do on a long list, then it will not serve. If she has any thoughts that they won't make this marriage work, it would behoove her to get back into the workforce, either through paid positions, or through some sort of volunteer activity or something. Going through a divorce and also trying to start a new career at the same time is difficult at best. -- Cal~ Calinda dot Letter S at Gmail dot com
  
  She indicated elsewhere that leaving is not on her mind. Though I obviously
  see the wisdom of this advice.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 05:28:00 GMT(27)
• "jbrianchamberlin" <jbrianchamberlin@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:q68401dpveeohmg4pstcbq5juvki86s22r@lawknowledge.org.4ax.com... On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:32:34 -0500, "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote:"jbrianchamberlin" <jbrianchamberlin@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in messagenews:cm1301pao5qt336jg00766e4n23or7h61h@lawknowledge.org.4ax .com... It's really a shame. I think a lot of problems between married couples can be fixed easily if BOTH parties are willing to make an effort. I'm just feeling like I'm getting that effort from my wife. Sorry to hear about your friends, Doug. --BrianBrian,I hope you meant what you said above and didn't just leave out the "not"(I'm just *not* feeling like I'm getting that effort from my wife). Ifsheseems to be putting forth some effort now, that's great and I'm happy foryou.Zorra Oh right.. I forgot the NOT. =) --Brian
  
  Ah, bummer.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:50:00 GMT(28)
• "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@lawknowledge.org.bigpond.com> wrote in message
  news:hGdMd.145465$K7.124447@lawknowledge.org.news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message news:hKadnfN4xeQNsZzfRVn-sg@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:dvpszieqj7.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes: Well, regardless of whether he loves you, it is clear that he doesn't treat you with respect. Having said that, I want to ask the rhetorical question: how can you change the way you behave towards him so that you insist on being treated with more respect? Don't know. My current methods generally end up in arguments that get us nowhere. Do you have any suggestions? One of my favourites is "speak the hand 'cos the ears aren't listening". Another one, when DH is arguing with me and trying to convince me that I am wrong and he is right, is to say "This discussion is going nowhere and I refuse to engage in it anymore". If he continues to try to discuss it I walk away or put my fingers in my ears and sing loudly. :)
  
  I understand refusing to argue pointlessly. But I do not understand how to
  do this, while keeping the lines of communication open for productive
  discussion. And in the heat, how do you tell the difference? I *know* my DH
  and I do this. But I will be dipped if I know how. We do have 2 people
  trying though. One word of, I feel you are attacking me or something, and we
  pause and apologize and decide if we want to resume the conversation now or
  later.
  I have come to the conclusion that my DH will only process my arguments and consider what I have to say if he has a day or so to think about it. Humour works well too.:) Amy
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 06:03:00 GMT(29)
• 'It was many years ago that I first became convinced that he has no
  respect for me.'
  
  ME: DId you get these indicators before you got married by chance ?
  
  'But mainly what seemed to happen is that DH would sit in the room and
  put in his time, and as soon as we left, he'd forget everything the
  counselor had said.'
  
  ME: He has built up resentment which needs dealing with.
  
  You both have declined into being critical toward each other and its
  gotton worse. You will both need to see value in your family, deal with
  pentup resentments that have a hold of you, otherwise, your marriage is
  doomed . Im sure you already know what im saying here, and i hope you
  can both make some serious changes.
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 17:11:00 GMT(30)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:tIidnX7Qy7Tc453fRVn-tg@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... Okay, a couple of people have suggested that with the number of issues I bring up, I really ought to have my own thread. So, here it is.
  
  Hi, Zorra, I've put in a few things below:
  Some of the things DH is insistant upon are ludicrous. For example, we live on a dead end street, about a 1/4 mile from the cul-de-sac. The bus passes our house, turns around in the cul-de-sac, and comes back. I usually have the kids out there early enough that they board on the way down the street. Every once in a while we're running a few minutes late, and we catch it on the way back. DH considers this unacceptable. It's rude to the bus driver to make her stop twice (actually, she doesn't stop on the way down if no one is there), and it teaches our children that it's okay to be late and to make other people wait on you. The counselor pointed out that if the bus driver has a problem with me, it's up to her to bring it up. Since it's my job to get the kids to school, he shouldn't quibble about it with me.
  
  If it were me, my solution would be to just put the kids on the bus on the
  second pass *every* day. That way, the first pass by alerts them that the
  bus is coming, and they should never miss it. Also, this would meet your
  husbands desire for consistency, and also meet your desire for this issue to
  never come up again...
  DH is convinced I don't do my share around the house. I used to about kill myself trying to please him, but it never worked. He loves words like "gross" and "disgusting". Once he said the refrigerator was disgusting. I go to see what he's talking about, and it was some dried milk flakes on the shelf. 5 seconds with a damp sponge and it was taken care of.
  
  Maybe this isn't so much a suggestion about what to say, as it is suggesting
  an alternate way for you to think about it - but my approach would be to say
  "if it is up to me to clean the refrigerator, then it is up to me to decide
  when it is dirty enough to be cleaned. You're stepping on my toes here."
  Dinner has always been a huge bone of contention at our house. He likes a much larger variety of foods than I do. Because of that, he takes the superior stance. *I* am the picky one, *he* is the normal one, so therefore I'm obligated to serve him what he wants. There are many nights that I prepare meals that I don't eat. Yet, if I try to prepare spaghetti or lasagna, which he will eat but are not his favorites, he gets upset. I get away with one or the other at most once a month. In fact, lately he has been refusing to eat them at all, saying that since I don't have to eat the dinners I don't like, he shouldn't have to either. And of course, I'm obligated then to fix the meal he *does* like, since I'm the cook.
  
  No, you are NOT obligated to fix whatever it is he is whining about. I
  think it is good to consider the whole family when it comes to meal
  planning. One approach might be to decree that the cook is going to
  consider everybody's preferences one night a week - so maybe Monday is his
  night, Tuesday is your night, Wednesday is kid #1s night, Thursday is kid
  #2 - make it a real family thing...not saying you have to have macaroni and
  cheese every Wednesday - just that on Wednesday, just to use Kid 1 as an
  example, Kid 1 can count on having *something* he or she likes. On Monday
  hubby can count on a favorite, on Tuesday you can count on a fovorite, etc.
  You don't have to do it that way, of course - but my point is, it is
  legitimate to consider *everybody's* preferences.
  And of course, there are the children. He completely discounts any bonding time I spend with them. He underestimates the time I spend with them on school activities and projects. And doesn't acknowledge the time and effort I put into their social growth. Worse, he insinuates that I am not a good mother. That I set a bad example for them. The bus thing is one example. Another was when DD was trying to learn to ride a bike. I tool her over to my neighbor's and asked if she could practice on their flat driveway. They said sure, anytime. DH saw us over there, and actually came all the way over and asked me if I'd asked permission before using their driveway.
  
  Along about this point, I'd be thinking "eat sh**". But I probably wouldn't
  say it.
• Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:09:00 GMT(31)
• On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:11:02 GMT, emma_anne@lawknowledge.org.mac.com (Emma Anne) wrote:
  Zorra <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote: Things were a bit rough when the kids were infants, but started really going downhill when I stopped working 5 years ago.If I were you, I'd get a job. Not because your H will then respect you- sadly this doesn't sound likely - but to give you some independence,and sense of accomplishment, and support network away from home.
  
  And an income and health insurance, so that you will have more
  options.
  
  Lauri in WA
  
  I like my email spamless
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 06:02:00 GMT(32)
• "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@lawknowledge.org.bigpond.com> wrote in message
  news:SSnMd.146178$K7.87598@lawknowledge.org.news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in Humour works well too.:) Amy LOL, I can see that! It is true that he never seems receptive when I try to talk to him, but sometimes it seems to have had an effect later. But even then he would never come back and say, "About what you were saying yesterday, I see your point." Or anything. It's just that sometimes his grumpiness seems to lessen, or he lays off about something in particular. Yeah my DH has a particularly hard time saying sorry or anything along those lines but he is getting better. I know now that I 'allowed' him to get away with stuff by not setting enough boundaries. Things got a lot healthier between us since I worked on my self confidence. I now know that I don't have to tolerate his bad moods or his put downs. I deserve to be treated with respect and if he slips up I let him know it! Amy
  
  You know, this is one of the biggest signs of hope I've seen for us. He
  never once apologized in the first decade of our marriage. The closest he
  came was "I'm sorry that you...." He actually has apologized at least twice
  within the last year.
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 19:32:00 GMT(33)
• "jbrianchamberlin" <jbrianchamberlin@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:cm1301pao5qt336jg00766e4n23or7h61h@lawknowledge.org.4ax.com... It's really a shame. I think a lot of problems between married couples can be fixed easily if BOTH parties are willing to make an effort. I'm just feeling like I'm getting that effort from my wife. Sorry to hear about your friends, Doug. --Brian
  
  Brian,
  
  I hope you meant what you said above and didn't just leave out the "not"
  (I'm just *not* feeling like I'm getting that effort from my wife). If she
  seems to be putting forth some effort now, that's great and I'm happy for
  you.
  
  Zorra
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 23:09:00 GMT(34)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:nx7jlq7hgc.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:py4qgud91s.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes: (snip)> I agree with you, as far as it goes. But how do you change habits of
  15> years? I am thinking something along the lines of; honey for 11 years
  I> have> been listening to you complain about what I cook you for dinner. I am
  not> going to be a short order cook anymore. If you do not like what I> prepared,> I suggest you go get a bowl of cereal or something. But then she had> better> have a thick skin to listen to him whine for some time until the new> habit> is established. Walking in that house would be like walking in a mine> field> for some time. Isn't it alreay? She feels like she's tried everything, but maybe she has yet to try actually standing up for herself and setting boundaries. Her current life sounds unhealthy (for her, their children, and for that matter, probably for her husband). She can't make him change. But she could change her behavior and refuse to cave in to disrespectful behavior. I defintely don't disagree. I was actually asking you for details on
  *how*. HOW does she break the habits of all these years. Oh. Sorry! I don't know. I think she just has to start. She'll need a lot of support, and she won't get it from her husband. One of the reasons I think counseling (for her) is in order.
  
  Therapy is a good start.
  For me, there is a book that was rather helpful, it's called 'I want to
  change, but I don't know how'
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:47:00 GMT(35)
• <SNIP>
  It make me want to slap K. upside the head and say "look, dummy, you don't have to change into a completely different person. You just have to start showing you care about L. again." Doug
  
  Just say it. Why do we all keep our mouths shut. If she tells you I can't
  change myself, then you reply...
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:55:00 GMT(36)
• "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes:
  "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@lawknowledge.org.bigpond.com> wrote in message news:hGdMd.145465$K7.124447@lawknowledge.org.news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message news:hKadnfN4xeQNsZzfRVn-sg@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:dvpszieqj7.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log...> "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes:>> Well, regardless of whether he loves> you, it is clear that he doesn't treat you with respect.>> Having said that, I want to ask the rhetorical question: how can you> change the way you behave towards him so that you insist on being> treated with more respect? Don't know. My current methods generally end up in arguments that get us nowhere. Do you have any suggestions? One of my favourites is "speak the hand 'cos the ears aren't listening". Another one, when DH is arguing with me and trying to convince me that I am wrong and he is right, is to say "This discussion is going nowhere and I refuse to engage in it anymore". If he continues to try to discuss it I walk away or put my fingers in my ears and sing loudly. :) I understand refusing to argue pointlessly. But I do not understand how to do this, while keeping the lines of communication open for productive discussion. And in the heat, how do you tell the difference? I *know* my DH and I do this. But I will be dipped if I know how. We do have 2 people trying though. One word of, I feel you are attacking me or something, and we pause and apologize and decide if we want to resume the conversation now or later.
  
  Zorra and Mr Zorra are not at a point where they can _have_ productive
  discussions. That point doesn't come until Mr. Zorra realizes it is
  necessary to be more respectful.
  
  Since lines of communication are not actually open, there is no need
  to "keep them open."
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 12:02:00 GMT(37)
• "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes:
  
  (snip)
  I agree with you, as far as it goes. But how do you change habits of 15 years? I am thinking something along the lines of; honey for 11 years I have been listening to you complain about what I cook you for dinner. I am not going to be a short order cook anymore. If you do not like what I prepared, I suggest you go get a bowl of cereal or something. But then she had better have a thick skin to listen to him whine for some time until the new habit is established. Walking in that house would be like walking in a mine field for some time.
  
  Isn't it alreay? She feels like she's tried everything, but maybe she
  has yet to try actually standing up for herself and setting
  boundaries.
  
  Her current life sounds unhealthy (for her, their children, and for
  that matter, probably for her husband). She can't make him change.
  But she could change her behavior and refuse to cave in to
  disrespectful behavior.
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 12:51:00 GMT(38)
• On Wed 02 Feb 2005 02:35:35p, Stephanie Stowe wrote:
  I, personally, don't think you should get an outside the home job unless you want an outside the home job. It does not seem to me that this would be condusive to the goals that Emma mentioned, giving you independenc and a sense of accomplishment, unless they would give *you* that indepenance and sense. If it just makes you have one more thing to do on a long list, then it will not serve.
  
  If she has any thoughts that they won't make this marriage work, it would
  behoove her to get back into the workforce, either through paid positions,
  or through some sort of volunteer activity or something. Going through a
  divorce and also trying to start a new career at the same time is
  difficult at best.
  --
  Cal~
  
  Calinda dot Letter S at Gmail dot com
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:31:00 GMT(39)
• "*Calinda*" <CalindaDotLetterS@lawknowledge.org.gmailRemove.com> wrote in message
  news:Xns95F1A196EBF9819599491@lawknowledge.org.130.133.1.4... On Wed 02 Feb 2005 02:35:35p, Stephanie Stowe wrote: I, personally, don't think you should get an outside the home job unless you want an outside the home job. It does not seem to me that this would be condusive to the goals that Emma mentioned, giving you independenc and a sense of accomplishment, unless they would give *you* that indepenance and sense. If it just makes you have one more thing to do on a long list, then it will not serve. If she has any thoughts that they won't make this marriage work, it would behoove her to get back into the workforce, either through paid positions, or through some sort of volunteer activity or something. Going through a divorce and also trying to start a new career at the same time is difficult at best. -- Cal~
  
  If that is part of the thought process, then it should make a difference in
  the type of job she's looking for. If you think you might have to get back
  into the workforce to support yourself, then a "busywork" type job probably
  won't do it. You'd have to lay out a course of action towards getting a job
  that pays a living wage.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:17:00 GMT(40)
• "Ellie" <ellie_first@lawknowledge.org.hotmail.com> wrote in message
  news:RuCMd.7925$sS1.7917@lawknowledge.org.fe12.lga... Zorra wrote: He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list. Do you mean he doesn't value your "nurturing" or does he think it just isn't that much work?
  
  A little of both. He wouldn't count the time involved towards work equity
  mostly.
  How about you suggest that each one of you make his/her own list and put everything that they think has to be done, and then compare the lists and only pick the items that are on both lists. That way if he has an item on his list that you don't agree with, it can be negotiated with an item on your list that he doesn't agree with! It may also make him realize how it feels when someone else assigns things to him that he didn't volunteer for.
  
  Now that just seems like way too much effort for little or no payoff.
  
  Zorra
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:59:00 GMT(41)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes:
  
  Well, regardless of whether he loves
  you, it is clear that he doesn't treat you with respect.
  
  Having said that, I want to ask the rhetorical question: how can you
  change the way you behave towards him so that you insist on being
  treated with more respect?
  
  (snip)
  Some of the things DH is insistant upon are ludicrous. For example, we live on a dead end street, about a 1/4 mile from the cul-de-sac. The bus passes our house, turns around in the cul-de-sac, and comes back. I usually have the kids out there early enough that they board on the way down the street. Every once in a while we're running a few minutes late, and we catch it on the way back. DH considers this unacceptable. It's rude to the bus driver to make her stop twice (actually, she doesn't stop on the way down if no one is there), and it teaches our children that it's okay to be late and to make other people wait on you. The counselor pointed out that if the bus driver has a problem with me, it's up to her to bring it up. Since it's my job to get the kids to school, he shouldn't quibble about it with me.
  
  This is the only thing you mention where I have some small sympathy
  for your husband's point of view. I know our kid's school bus
  driver. In our area, the bus driver is breaking a rule if she stops
  anyplace other than the stops on her route.
  
  Now she is very nice, and is willing to break that rule, but I feel
  like by asking her to do it, I'd be inconveniencing her or putting
  her in an awkward spot. I hate inconveniencing others, or teaching
  my kids that it is OK to inconvenience others. So I would strongly
  want to get my kids to the appointed stop on time.
  Instead of granting that any of this might be true, DH got angry that he wasn't "allowed" to complain about things he still thinks are important. At any rate, when school let out for the summer we stopped going to sessions. We didn't start up again this year because they "weren't doing any good."
  
  Let me suggest that you keep going to counseling with or without your
  husband. You need some help learning to not tolerate disrespectful
  behavior from him. If he wants to come, even better, as long as he is
  willing to acknowledge that both of you are there to work on things,
  not just you.
  DH is convinced I don't do my share around the house. I used to about kill myself trying to please him, but it never worked. He loves words like "gross" and "disgusting". Once he said the refrigerator was disgusting. I go to see what he's talking about, and it was some dried milk flakes on the shelf. 5 seconds with a damp sponge and it was taken care of. Another time it was, "Ewww, gross! What's this?" Well, okay, I'd cleaned out the leftovers and missed *one* tupperware. The biggest problem is that he just assumes I don't do anything. It seems beyond his capacity to understand that you can vaccuum the floor one day, and it will be dirty the next. One day I spent hours cleaning and straightening the garage, and he came in and started stomping around because the counter was too cluttered. He doesn't see what's done, he only sees what isn't. Dinner has always been a huge bone of contention at our house. He likes a much larger variety of foods than I do. Because of that, he takes the superior stance. *I* am the picky one, *he* is the normal one, so therefore I'm obligated to serve him what he wants.
  
  Don't play this game. My wife and I share cooking. I cook what
  pleases me (yes, I like to please her too, but if I make something
  she doesn't like, I _certainly don't jump up to make an alternative),
  and she cooks what pleases her.
  There are many nights that I prepare meals that I don't eat. Yet, if I try to prepare spaghetti or lasagna, which he will eat but are not his favorites, he gets upset. I get away with one or the other at most once a month. In fact, lately he has been refusing to eat them at all, saying that since I don't have to eat the dinners I don't like, he shouldn't have to either.
  
  What is wrong with him refusing to eat? It is childish, but let him
  do it. If he doesn't like the food you prepare, he is free to
  prepare dinner for himself (or better yet, for everyone).
  And of course, I'm obligated then to fix the meal he *does* like, since I'm the cook.
  
  No, you're not. But he won't believe that until you believe it, and
  can demonstrate that you believe it.
  
  Yikes. Well, your husband sounds terrible - I wouldn't live with him.
  But _you_ have important work to do to get out from under feeling so
  devalued by his opinions. Not only is this the only healthy route for
  you, it is the only healthy route for your children! You don't want
  them to grow up and try to replicate the kind of relationship you have
  with your husband.
  
  Also, there is a very faint possibility that if you refuse to cater to
  your husband's whims, he'll grow to respect you. (Though that is
  probably pretty faint.)
  
  Doug
• Fri, 04 Feb 2005 10:56:00 GMT(42)
• "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> wrote in message
  news:36he33F52m20jU1@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... Send him to this newsgroup where he can see people telling you to drop his sorry *** like a hot rock. I am sorry Zorra, but when I get frustrated I get angry.
  
  LOL Stephanie. Actually, I have been surprised that I haven't gotten more
  of the opposing viewpoint. I did even briefly wonder if he could see all
  that's been said, if it would be a wake-up call to him. But of course that
  was just a fleeting fantasy.
  
  Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 20:02:00 GMT(43)
• Zorra wrote:
  He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list.
  
  Do you mean he doesn't value your "nurturing" or does he think it just
  isn't that much work?
  
  How about you suggest that each one of you make his/her own list and put
  everything that they think has to be done, and then compare the lists
  and only pick the items that are on both lists. That way if he has an
  item on his list that you don't agree with, it can be negotiated with an
  item on your list that he doesn't agree with! It may also make him
  realize how it feels when someone else assigns things to him that he
  didn't volunteer for.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:59:00 GMT(44)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in You know, this is one of the biggest signs of hope I've seen for us. He never once apologized in the first decade of our marriage. The closest he came was "I'm sorry that you...." He actually has apologized at least twice within the last year.
  
  :)))))
  
  Amy
• Fri, 04 Feb 2005 06:11:00 GMT(45)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:36gadoF51gtlaU2@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:36evruF4deg4fU6@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... Zorra and Mr Zorra are not at a point where they can _have_ productive discussions. That point doesn't come until Mr. Zorra realizes it is necessary to be more respectful. Since lines of communication are not actually open, there is no need to "keep them open." Every now and again we manage a good discussion. There was one a few weeks ago where I told him that I felt like he was trying to act as CEO in this marriage. He claimed it was more like a job share, then asked, "What would you do if your job share partner didn't hold up their end of the bargain?" I answered that I would not feel unilaterally qualified to determine what the goals were. And that I would examine said partner's "failures" to see if they really affected the bottom line, or if they only bugged me. He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list. Maybe I should go through the exercise with him though. It might be enlightening. Well, I can understand why you resisted. But it seems like the sort of exercise that could have been worthwhile.
  
  That's not what *I* read at all. It sounds like further opening the door to
  his micromanaging *her* affairs and dictating how she handles *her*
  business.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 10:28:00 GMT(46)
• "Dave in Lake Villa" <DaveInLakeVilla@lawknowledge.org.webtv.net> wrote in message
  news:23616-42022F44-13@lawknowledge.org.storefull-3233.bay.webtv.net... 'It was many years ago that I first became convinced that he has no respect for me.' ME: DId you get these indicators before you got married by chance ?
  
  Of course I did -- I just didn't recognize them at the time.
  'But mainly what seemed to happen is that DH would sit in the room and put in his time, and as soon as we left, he'd forget everything the counselor had said.' ME: He has built up resentment which needs dealing with.
  
  I'm sure we both do.
  You both have declined into being critical toward each other and its gotton worse. You will both need to see value in your family, deal with pentup resentments that have a hold of you, otherwise, your marriage is doomed . Im sure you already know what im saying here, and i hope you can both make some serious changes.
  
  Here's the problem. He and I both know that things aren't right. We both
  know that *something* needs to be done to fix them. But we can never seem
  to get on the same page about it. He's not a talker, so I'm the only one
  that ever brings up the subject of our relationship, and then all I get is,
  "I've tried and tried, and I'm sick of trying." And from his POV, I'm sure
  he has tried, but I didn't realize it at the time.
  
  Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 08:36:00 GMT(47)
• Stephanie Stowe <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> wrote:
  Dinner has always been a huge bone of contention at our house. He likes a much larger variety of foods than I do. Because of that, he takes the superior stance. *I* am the picky one, *he* is the normal one, so therefore I'm obligated to serve him what he wants. Don't play this game. My wife and I share cooking. I cook what pleases me (yes, I like to please her too, but if I make something she doesn't like, I _certainly don't jump up to make an alternative), and she cooks what pleases her. I agree with you, as far as it goes. But how do you change habits of 15 years? I am thinking something along the lines of; honey for 11 years I have been listening to you complain about what I cook you for dinner. I am not going to be a short order cook anymore. If you do not like what I prepared, I suggest you go get a bowl of cereal or something. But then she had better have a thick skin to listen to him whine for some time until the new habit is established. Walking in that house would be like walking in a mine field for some time.
  
  Zorra, if you are going to do this, I strongly recommend reading a book
  called "The Dance of Anger" first. Because you are going to get some
  *fierce* "change-back" behavoirs, and you need to know how to maintain
  your boundaries - before you try to set them up.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:32:00 GMT(48)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes:
  <michaela> wrote in message news:t6adnRTXStd_M5zfRVn-iw@lawknowledge.org.is.co.za... Zorra wrote: "Stephanie Stowe" wrote <SNIP>> not strong, not by any stretch. But the counselor could possibly> help you find ways to move thigns within your marriage in directions> you would like them to go, or help you decide what you want to do if> leaving is something that you have considered. I've considered leaving, but thus far have rejected it. It doesn't seem to be worth all the financial and emotional upheaval, as well as the practical difficulties, just for the *hope* that one day I might be happier. My life, except for his disapproval is a good one. I like my home, my kids, my friends, and the whole niche we fit into. If DH hasn't been in one of his sullen moods that day, I'm pretty happy. And DH is a good man, a good friend, a good dad, a good worker -- the only thing he isn't good at IMHO is being a husband. And he probably knows you won't leave or put your foot down so he has no incentive to change. Maybe so, but it's not like I can threaten to leave just to try to make him change. Or, at least, I don't think he'd take it seriously until I handed him the key to an apartment and said, "Get out" at which point I'd better be ready for him to call my bluff. Seems to me that until you love you, he's not going to. What do you mean by this? Why do you think I don't?
  
  I don't know about Michaela, but my impression is that if a person
  responds to disrespectful treatment by either doing what is requested,
  or by trying to justify his or herself, it is a sign that he or she
  needs the approval from the disrespectful person.
  
  If you think well of yourself, you are much less dependent on approval
  from others.
  
  Call that self-love or not, as you wish.
  
  Doug
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:53:00 GMT(49)
• "Joy" <joy@lawknowledge.org.joydoesntlikespam.com> wrote in message
  news:_VeMd.5950$OK2.287@lawknowledge.org.fe03.lga... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message news:tIidnX7Qy7Tc453fRVn-tg@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... Okay, a couple of people have suggested that with the number of issues I bring up, I really ought to have my own thread. So, here it is. Hi, Zorra, I've put in a few things below: Some of the things DH is insistant upon are ludicrous. For example, we live on a dead end street, about a 1/4 mile from the cul-de-sac. The bus passes our house, turns around in the cul-de-sac, and comes back. I usually have the kids out there early enough that they board on the way down the street. Every once in a while we're running a few minutes late, and we catch it on the way back. DH considers this unacceptable. It's rude to the bus driver to make her stop twice (actually, she doesn't stop on the way down if no one is there), and it teaches our children that it's okay to be late and to make other people wait on you. The counselor pointed out that if the bus driver has a problem with me, it's up to her to bring it up. Since it's my job to get the kids to school, he shouldn't quibble about it with me. If it were me, my solution would be to just put the kids on the bus on the second pass *every* day. That way, the first pass by alerts them that the bus is coming, and they should never miss it. Also, this would meet your husbands desire for consistency, and also meet your desire for this issue to never come up again... DH is convinced I don't do my share around the house. I used to about kill myself trying to please him, but it never worked. He loves words like "gross" and "disgusting". Once he said the refrigerator was disgusting. I go to see what he's talking about, and it was some dried milk flakes on the shelf. 5 seconds with a damp sponge and it was taken care of. Maybe this isn't so much a suggestion about what to say, as it is suggesting an alternate way for you to think about it - but my approach would be to say "if it is up to me to clean the refrigerator, then it is up to me to decide when it is dirty enough to be cleaned. You're stepping on my toes here." Dinner has always been a huge bone of contention at our house. He likes a much larger variety of foods than I do. Because of that, he takes the superior stance. *I* am the picky one, *he* is the normal one, so therefore I'm obligated to serve him what he wants. There are many nights that I prepare meals that I don't eat. Yet, if I try to prepare spaghetti or lasagna, which he will eat but are not his favorites, he gets upset. I get away with one or the other at most once a month. In fact, lately he has been refusing to eat them at all, saying that since I don't have to eat the dinners I don't like, he shouldn't have to either. And of course, I'm obligated then to fix the meal he *does* like, since I'm the cook. No, you are NOT obligated to fix whatever it is he is whining about. I think it is good to consider the whole family when it comes to meal planning. One approach might be to decree that the cook is going to consider everybody's preferences one night a week - so maybe Monday is his night, Tuesday is your night, Wednesday is kid #1s night, Thursday is kid #2 - make it a real family thing...not saying you have to have macaroni and cheese every Wednesday - just that on Wednesday, just to use Kid 1 as an example, Kid 1 can count on having *something* he or she likes. On Monday hubby can count on a favorite, on Tuesday you can count on a fovorite, etc. You don't have to do it that way, of course - but my point is, it is legitimate to consider *everybody's* preferences. And of course, there are the children. He completely discounts any bonding time I spend with them. He underestimates the time I spend with them on school activities and projects. And doesn't acknowledge the time and effort I put into their social growth. Worse, he insinuates that I am not a good mother. That I set a bad example for them. The bus thing is one example. Another was when DD was trying to learn to ride a bike. I tool her over to my neighbor's and asked if she could practice on their flat driveway. They said sure, anytime. DH saw us over there, and actually came all the way over and asked me if I'd asked permission before using their driveway. Along about this point, I'd be thinking "eat sh**". But I probably wouldn't say it.
  
  I *would* say it. I missed that lovely paragraph.
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:39:00 GMT(50)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:dvpszieqj7.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes: Well, regardless of whether he loves you, it is clear that he doesn't treat you with respect. Having said that, I want to ask the rhetorical question: how can you change the way you behave towards him so that you insist on being treated with more respect?
  
  Don't know. My current methods generally end up in arguments that get us
  nowhere. Do you have any suggestions?
  Some of the things DH is insistant upon are ludicrous. For example, we live on a dead end street, about a 1/4 mile from the cul-de-sac. The bus passes our house, turns around in the cul-de-sac, and comes back. I usually have the kids out there early enough that they board on the way down the street. Every once in a while we're running a few minutes late, and we catch it on the way back. DH considers this unacceptable. It's rude to the bus driver to make her stop twice (actually, she doesn't stop on the way down if no one is there), and it teaches our children that it's okay to be late and to make other people wait on you. The counselor pointed out that if the bus driver has a problem with me, it's up to her to bring it up. Since it's my job to get the kids to school, he shouldn't quibble about it with me. This is the only thing you mention where I have some small sympathy for your husband's point of view. I know our kid's school bus driver. In our area, the bus driver is breaking a rule if she stops anyplace other than the stops on her route.
  
  Does it make any difference to you if I tell you that she is not breaking
  this rule? Our stop is at the top of our driveway. She just happens to
  pass it twice. How about if I tell you that there is no rule about which
  time we're supposed to get on? How about if I tell you that it's not one
  way today, another tomorrow, but maybe 4 or 5 times out of the entire school
  year that circumstances cuase us to be a little later than usual?
  Now she is very nice, and is willing to break that rule, but I feel like by asking her to do it, I'd be inconveniencing her or putting her in an awkward spot. I hate inconveniencing others, or teaching my kids that it is OK to inconvenience others. So I would strongly want to get my kids to the appointed stop on time.
  
  Lol, you'd probably be livid with our neighbors. They have two boys and
  often one is ready and the other is not. So the boy who is ready gets on
  the bus while it's going down the street, and the other one gets on when she
  comes back. Alternatively, sometimes the parents take the backpacks to the
  top of the driveway. The driver, seeing the packs, stops and then has to
  wait while the boys come running out from the house.
  Let me suggest that you keep going to counseling with or without your husband. You need some help learning to not tolerate disrespectful behavior from him. If he wants to come, even better, as long as he is willing to acknowledge that both of you are there to work on things, not just you.
  
  I have considered going back to that marriage counselor alone. He's been
  more helpful to me than individual counselors I've seen in the past.
  Don't play this game. My wife and I share cooking. I cook what pleases me (yes, I like to please her too, but if I make something she doesn't like, I _certainly don't jump up to make an alternative), and she cooks what pleases her.
  
  That's what we used to do before kids when we were both working.
  What is wrong with him refusing to eat? It is childish, but let him do it. If he doesn't like the food you prepare, he is free to prepare dinner for himself (or better yet, for everyone). And of course, I'm obligated then to fix the meal he *does* like, since I'm the cook. No, you're not. But he won't believe that until you believe it, and can demonstrate that you believe it.
  
  Granted.
  Also, there is a very faint possibility that if you refuse to cater to your husband's whims, he'll grow to respect you. (Though that is probably pretty faint.) Doug
  
  lol -- Well, there's always hope, eh?
  
  Zorra
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:52:00 GMT(51)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:otudnZrpdb-8hZzfRVn-qg@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> wrote in message news:36c3pqF50ak0dU1@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... DH is convinced I don't do my share around the house. I used to about kill myself trying to please him, but it never worked. He loves words like "gross" and "disgusting". Once he said the refrigerator was disgusting. I go to see what he's talking about, and it was some dried milk flakes on the shelf. 5 seconds with a damp sponge and it was taken care of. Another time it was, "Ewww, gross! What's this?" Well, okay, I'd cleaned out the leftovers and missed *one* tupperware. Honestly, you know what is coming to mind? There was a movie w/ Julia Roberts in which she is married to an abusive control freak micromanaging jerk ball. You have not said that your spouse hits you (yet I am not done reading). But otherwise, he sounds a lot like the guy in the movie. I haven't seen the movie. DH has never been, and I'm convinced will never be physically abusive. And I don't really think he's a control freak. I'm not sure how to explain it. He has certain expectations that he considers to be very reasonable. He doesn't really care what I do day to day, as long as those expectations are met. But he quite often doesn't feel they've been met, and that makes him unhappy. And when he's unhappy, he tends to mope and bang around the house. <<<Zorra>>> I feel badly for you. It sounds miserable. I so usually take a pragmatic approach that the only one you can change is yourself and try to give advice based in that, but it sounds like you are doing all that you can do and trying so hard. If he is not willing to get in the game at all, what is left for you to do? I wish I had the answer to that, but unfortunately I don't. Do *you* have any hope for building (I feel I cannot say rebuilding since it is unclear there ever was what I consider a real marriage) a real marriage with this man? I don't know. I go back and forth. The answer is that there probably is very little hope. But very little isn't none. And I guess I hang on to that glimmer. The problem is that I don't believe he is willing to try. He claims he has tried for years, and that he has given up. On the other hand, when he's not upset about something, he's the one more likely to joke around and act as if our relationship is okay. It sounds like he does not care if you are happy, or quite the contrary gets his ego built up by your unhappiness. If this is true, this is abuse. You have been together for a long time, and it has not yet escalted to physical abuse. That is not to say it won't, but it may not. On the other hand, I would normally suggest that you stop trying so hard to please your husband and start making some demands of your own. But that scares me a little. I may be off base here, but your DH sounds not perfectly stable to me. No, I'm confident at least in his stability. I have, for the most part, stopped trying to please him. Of course that has done nothing to make things better. I just got so tired of being the only one to make an effort. Do you have any close confidants? A close sister or friend? What do they say about all this? "Oh, I'm so sorry." and "I just don't know what to say."
  
  :( Well, for what it is worth. Me neither. Lame, lame, lame.
  The only advice I can think to give you is to seek counseling for yourself. Someone else on this board (hope whoever does not mind using your quote even though I cannot remember who you are) was told by their counselor when it became clear that the husband did not care that they needed to make her strong enough to leave or strong enough to stay. That spoke to me somehow. I am not saying you are not strong, not by any stretch. But the counselor could possibly help you find ways to move thigns within your marriage in directions you would like them to go, or help you decide what you want to do if leaving is something that you have considered. I've considered leaving, but thus far have rejected it. It doesn't seem to be worth all the financial and emotional upheaval, as well as the practical difficulties, just for the *hope* that one day I might be happier. My life, except for his disapproval is a good one. I like my home, my kids, my friends, and the whole niche we fit into. If DH hasn't been in one of his sullen moods that day, I'm pretty happy. And DH is a good man, a good friend, a good dad, a good worker -- the only thing he isn't good at IMHO is being a husband. Good luck. (Geesh that is so lame. But what else can someone say?) LOL, thanks. Zorra
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:33:00 GMT(52)
• "Doug Anderson" I don't know. I think she just has to start. She'll need a lot of support, and she won't get it from her husband. One of the reasons I think counseling (for her) is in order.
  
  BTDT
  
  In my opinion what she can start doing is say "no" or "tough" to her husband
  more often. It takes time and effort to build respect from someone who has
  learned to disrespect you. She needs to start practicing right away on small
  issues and build up to the larger issues. It boils down to showing him that
  she respects herself and in turn deserves to be respected.
  
  Amy
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 15:49:00 GMT(53)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:hKadnfN4xeQNsZzfRVn-sg@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:dvpszieqj7.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes: Well, regardless of whether he loves you, it is clear that he doesn't treat you with respect. Having said that, I want to ask the rhetorical question: how can you change the way you behave towards him so that you insist on being treated with more respect? Don't know. My current methods generally end up in arguments that get us nowhere. Do you have any suggestions?
  
  One of my favourites is "speak the hand 'cos the ears aren't listening".
  
  Another one, when DH is arguing with me and trying to convince me that I am
  wrong and he is right, is to say "This discussion is going nowhere and I
  refuse to engage in it anymore". If he continues to try to discuss it I walk
  away or put my fingers in my ears and sing loudly. :)
  
  I have come to the conclusion that my DH will only process my arguments and
  consider what I have to say if he has a day or so to think about it.
  
  Humour works well too.:)
  
  Amy
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 03:25:00 GMT(54)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in Humour works well too.:) Amy LOL, I can see that! It is true that he never seems receptive when I try to talk to him, but sometimes it seems to have had an effect later. But even then he would never come back and say, "About what you were saying yesterday, I see your point." Or anything. It's just that sometimes his grumpiness seems to lessen, or he lays off about something in particular.
  
  Yeah my DH has a particularly hard time saying sorry or anything along those
  lines but he is getting better. I know now that I 'allowed' him to get away
  with stuff by not setting enough boundaries. Things got a lot healthier
  between us since I worked on my self confidence. I now know that I don't
  have to tolerate his bad moods or his put downs. I deserve to be treated
  with respect and if he slips up I let him know it!
  
  Amy
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 05:32:00 GMT(55)
• <michaela> wrote in message news:t6adnRTXStd_M5zfRVn-iw@lawknowledge.org.is.co.za... Zorra wrote: "Stephanie Stowe" wrote <SNIP> not strong, not by any stretch. But the counselor could possibly help you find ways to move thigns within your marriage in directions you would like them to go, or help you decide what you want to do if leaving is something that you have considered. I've considered leaving, but thus far have rejected it. It doesn't seem to be worth all the financial and emotional upheaval, as well as the practical difficulties, just for the *hope* that one day I might be happier. My life, except for his disapproval is a good one. I like my home, my kids, my friends, and the whole niche we fit into. If DH hasn't been in one of his sullen moods that day, I'm pretty happy. And DH is a good man, a good friend, a good dad, a good worker -- the only thing he isn't good at IMHO is being a husband. And he probably knows you won't leave or put your foot down so he has no incentive to change.
  
  Maybe so, but it's not like I can threaten to leave just to try to make him
  change. Or, at least, I don't think he'd take it seriously until I handed
  him the key to an apartment and said, "Get out" at which point I'd better be
  ready for him to call my bluff.
  Seems to me that until you love you, he's not going to.
  
  What do you mean by this? Why do you think I don't?
  
  Zorra
• Fri, 04 Feb 2005 10:56:00 GMT(56)
• "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> wrote in message
  news:36he33F52m20jU1@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... Send him to this newsgroup where he can see people telling you to drop his sorry *** like a hot rock. I am sorry Zorra, but when I get frustrated I get angry.
  
  LOL Stephanie. Actually, I have been surprised that I haven't gotten more
  of the opposing viewpoint. I did even briefly wonder if he could see all
  that's been said, if it would be a wake-up call to him. But of course that
  was just a fleeting fantasy.
  
  Zorra
• Fri, 04 Feb 2005 06:14:00 GMT(57)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:tNCdneWrl9bzjp7fRVn-iw@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Ellie" <ellie_first@lawknowledge.org.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:RuCMd.7925$sS1.7917@lawknowledge.org.fe12.lga... Zorra wrote: He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list. Do you mean he doesn't value your "nurturing" or does he think it just isn't that much work? A little of both. He wouldn't count the time involved towards work equity mostly.
  
  I guess I am the only one, but this approach seems way wrong to me. You do
  not have to prove to him that you are valuable. You do not have to prove to
  him that what is important to you IS important. And he does not have the
  right to micromanage your job according to his wishes. And families are not
  supposed to be run on a balance sheet with his and her "work equity"
  balancing to the penny. Starting down that road just sounds like a way to
  add more arguments since there cannot be equity when the game is really
  about proving how much righter you are, whcih is what I really think your
  husband is about.
  How about you suggest that each one of you make his/her own list and put everything that they think has to be done, and then compare the lists and only pick the items that are on both lists. That way if he has an item on his list that you don't agree with, it can be negotiated with an item on your list that he doesn't agree with! It may also make him realize how it feels when someone else assigns things to him that he didn't volunteer for. Now that just seems like way too much effort for little or no payoff. Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:05:00 GMT(58)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:36gadoF51gtlaU2@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes: He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list. Maybe I should go through the exercise with him though. It might be enlightening. Well, I can understand why you resisted. But it seems like the sort of exercise that could have been worthwhile.
  
  But can you imagine? He's got "job - 45 hours/week" And against that I
  have to put, "get kids on bus - 3:45 hours/week, help with homework - 6ish
  hours/week, dinner, 4 hours/week, vacuuming, 2 hours/week, laundry 3
  hours/week, grocery shopping, 1 hour/week, -- what am I up to, less than 20
  hours so far? Okay, well, picking up the kids stuff off the floor, 2
  hours/week. Getting the kids to pick their *own* stuff off the floor, 3
  hours/week, volunteering - 1 hour/week, except at certain times of the year
  when it's about 20 hours/week, cuddling kids - 5 hours/week, chauffeuring -
  2 hours/week...
  
  Anyway, you get the picture.
  
  I just didn't think we should even go there.
  
  Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 23:33:00 GMT(59)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:36gadoF51gtlaU2@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:36evruF4deg4fU6@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... Zorra and Mr Zorra are not at a point where they can _have_ productive discussions. That point doesn't come until Mr. Zorra realizes it is necessary to be more respectful. Since lines of communication are not actually open, there is no need to "keep them open." Every now and again we manage a good discussion. There was one a few
  weeks ago where I told him that I felt like he was trying to act as CEO in
  this marriage. He claimed it was more like a job share, then asked, "What
  would you do if your job share partner didn't hold up their end of the
  bargain?" I answered that I would not feel unilaterally qualified to determine
  what the goals were. And that I would examine said partner's "failures" to
  see if they really affected the bottom line, or if they only bugged me. He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that
  we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big
  problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house
  and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the
  list. Maybe I should go through the exercise with him though. It might be enlightening. Well, I can understand why you resisted. But it seems like the sort of exercise that could have been worthwhile.
  
  I agree!
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 06:56:00 GMT(60)
• On Wed 02 Feb 2005 02:16:15a, Zorra wrote:
  
  Well, this is *way* too long already, and only about a tenth of what I have to say. But I'll stop here for the sake of sanity. Zorra
  
  I could feel my stomach tighening and my jaw clenching while reading this.
  
  {{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}
  
  --
  Cal~
  
  Calinda dot Letter S at Gmail dot com
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 08:11:00 GMT(61)
• Zorra <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote:
  Things were a bit rough when the kids were infants, but started really going downhill when I stopped working 5 years ago.
  
  If I were you, I'd get a job. Not because your H will then respect you
  - sadly this doesn't sound likely - but to give you some independence,
  and sense of accomplishment, and support network away from home.
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 05:44:00 GMT(62)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:tIidnX7Qy7Tc453fRVn-tg@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... Okay, a couple of people have suggested that with the number of issues I bring up, I really ought to have my own thread. So, here it is. *sigh* Except that I don't know where to start. Pretty much everything is wrong, and there's so much history. We've been married for 11 years, were together for 4 before our engagement and 5 before the actual wedding. Things have never been completely smooth sailing for us. It was many years ago that I first became convinced that he has no respect for me. Things were a bit rough when the kids were infants, but started really going downhill when I stopped working 5 years ago. About 2 years ago I began to suspect that he not only doesn't respect me, but doesn't love me either. I've asked him and he refuses to answer, but did not contradict me when I told him what I thought. We went to counseling at my insistance.
  
  :(
  The counselor did have some advice for me -- mainly that I shouldn't care so much when DH was being overly critical. But the sessions tended to focus more on DH and what he needed to change. That angered DH of course. And he was indignant when the counselor suggested that sometimes you do things for no other reason than to make your spouse happy.
  
  This angered your DH? Double :(
  DH considers himself right about pretty much everything, and so it goes completely against his grain to compromise on anything. But mainly what seemed to happen is that DH would sit in the room and put in his time, and as soon as we left, he'd forget everything the counselor had said. Some of the things DH is insistant upon are ludicrous. For example, we live on a dead end street, about a 1/4 mile from the cul-de-sac. The bus passes our house, turns around in the cul-de-sac, and comes back. I usually have the kids out there early enough that they board on the way down the street. Every once in a while we're running a few minutes late, and we catch it on the way back. DH considers this unacceptable. It's rude to the bus driver to make her stop twice (actually, she doesn't stop on the way down if no one is there), and it teaches our children that it's okay to be late and to make other people wait on you. The counselor pointed out that if the bus driver has a problem with me, it's up to her to bring it up. Since it's my job to get the kids to school, he shouldn't quibble about it with me. Instead of granting that any of this might be true, DH got angry that he wasn't "allowed" to complain about things he still thinks are important. At any rate, when school let out for the summer we stopped going to sessions. We didn't start up again this year because they "weren't doing any good." DH is convinced I don't do my share around the house. I used to about kill myself trying to please him, but it never worked. He loves words like "gross" and "disgusting". Once he said the refrigerator was disgusting. I go to see what he's talking about, and it was some dried milk flakes on the shelf. 5 seconds with a damp sponge and it was taken care of. Another time it was, "Ewww, gross! What's this?" Well, okay, I'd cleaned out the leftovers and missed *one* tupperware.
  
  Honestly, you know what is coming to mind? There was a movie w/ Julia
  Roberts in which she is married to an abusive control freak micromanaging
  jerk ball. You have not said that your spouse hits you (yet I am not done
  reading). But otherwise, he sounds a lot like the guy in the movie.
  
  The biggest problem is that he just assumes I don't do anything. It seems beyond his capacity to understand that you can vaccuum the floor one day, and it will be dirty the next. One day I spent hours cleaning and straightening the garage, and he came in and started stomping around because the counter was too cluttered. He doesn't see what's done, he only sees what isn't. Dinner has always been a huge bone of contention at our house. He likes a much larger variety of foods than I do. Because of that, he takes the superior stance. *I* am the picky one, *he* is the normal one, so therefore I'm obligated to serve him what he wants. There are many nights that I prepare meals that I don't eat. Yet, if I try to prepare spaghetti or lasagna, which he will eat but are not his favorites, he gets upset. I get away with one or the other at most once a month. In fact, lately he has been refusing to eat them at all, saying that since I don't have to eat the dinners I don't like, he shouldn't have to either. And of course, I'm obligated then to fix the meal he *does* like, since I'm the cook. And of course, there are the children. He completely discounts any bonding time I spend with them. He underestimates the time I spend with them on school activities and projects. And doesn't acknowledge the time and effort I put into their social growth. Worse, he insinuates that I am not a good mother. That I set a bad example for them. The bus thing is one example. Another was when DD was trying to learn to ride a bike. I tool her over to my neighbor's and asked if she could practice on their flat driveway. They said sure, anytime. DH saw us over there, and actually came all the way over and asked me if I'd asked permission before using their driveway. Well, this is *way* too long already, and only about a tenth of what I have to say. But I'll stop here for the sake of sanity. Zorra
  
  <<<Zorra>>> I feel badly for you. It sounds miserable. I so usually take a
  pragmatic approach that the only one you can change is yourself and try to
  give advice based in that, but it sounds like you are doing all that you can
  do and trying so hard. If he is not willing to get in the game at all, what
  is left for you to do? I wish I had the answer to that, but unfortunately I
  don't. Do *you* have any hope for building (I feel I cannot say rebuilding
  since it is unclear there ever was what I consider a real marriage) a real
  marriage with this man?
  
  It sounds like he does not care if you are happy, or quite the contrary gets
  his ego built up by your unhappiness. If this is true, this is abuse. You
  have been together for a long time, and it has not yet escalted to physical
  abuse. That is not to say it won't, but it may not. On the other hand, I
  would normally suggest that you stop trying so hard to please your husband
  and start making some demands of your own. But that scares me a little. I
  may be off base here, but your DH sounds not perfectly stable to me.
  
  Do you have any close confidants? A close sister or friend? What do they say
  about all this?
  
  The only advice I can think to give you is to seek counseling for yourself.
  Someone else on this board (hope whoever does not mind using your quote even
  though I cannot remember who you are) was told by their counselor when it
  became clear that the husband did not care that they needed to make her
  strong enough to leave or strong enough to stay. That spoke to me somehow. I
  am not saying you are not strong, not by any stretch. But the counselor
  could possibly help you find ways to move thigns within your marriage in
  directions you would like them to go, or help you decide what you want to do
  if leaving is something that you have considered.
  
  Good luck. (Geesh that is so lame. But what else can someone say?)
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:12:00 GMT(63)
• "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> wrote in message
  news:36c3pqF50ak0dU1@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... DH is convinced I don't do my share around the house. I used to about kill myself trying to please him, but it never worked. He loves words like "gross" and "disgusting". Once he said the refrigerator was disgusting. I go to see what he's talking about, and it was some dried milk flakes on the shelf. 5 seconds with a damp sponge and it was taken care of. Another time it was, "Ewww, gross! What's this?" Well, okay, I'd cleaned out the leftovers and missed *one* tupperware. Honestly, you know what is coming to mind? There was a movie w/ Julia Roberts in which she is married to an abusive control freak micromanaging jerk ball. You have not said that your spouse hits you (yet I am not done reading). But otherwise, he sounds a lot like the guy in the movie.
  
  I haven't seen the movie. DH has never been, and I'm convinced will never
  be physically abusive. And I don't really think he's a control freak. I'm
  not sure how to explain it. He has certain expectations that he considers
  to be very reasonable. He doesn't really care what I do day to day, as long
  as those expectations are met. But he quite often doesn't feel they've been
  met, and that makes him unhappy. And when he's unhappy, he tends to mope
  and bang around the house.
  <<<Zorra>>> I feel badly for you. It sounds miserable. I so usually take a pragmatic approach that the only one you can change is yourself and try to give advice based in that, but it sounds like you are doing all that you can do and trying so hard. If he is not willing to get in the game at all, what is left for you to do? I wish I had the answer to that, but unfortunately I don't. Do *you* have any hope for building (I feel I cannot say rebuilding since it is unclear there ever was what I consider a real marriage) a real marriage with this man?
  
  I don't know. I go back and forth. The answer is that there probably is
  very little hope. But very little isn't none. And I guess I hang on to
  that glimmer. The problem is that I don't believe he is willing to try. He
  claims he has tried for years, and that he has given up. On the other hand,
  when he's not upset about something, he's the one more likely to joke around
  and act as if our relationship is okay.
  It sounds like he does not care if you are happy, or quite the contrary gets his ego built up by your unhappiness. If this is true, this is abuse. You have been together for a long time, and it has not yet escalted to physical abuse. That is not to say it won't, but it may not. On the other hand, I would normally suggest that you stop trying so hard to please your husband and start making some demands of your own. But that scares me a little. I may be off base here, but your DH sounds not perfectly stable to me.
  
  No, I'm confident at least in his stability. I have, for the most part,
  stopped trying to please him. Of course that has done nothing to make
  things better. I just got so tired of being the only one to make an effort.
  Do you have any close confidants? A close sister or friend? What do they say about all this?
  
  "Oh, I'm so sorry." and "I just don't know what to say."
  The only advice I can think to give you is to seek counseling for yourself. Someone else on this board (hope whoever does not mind using your quote even though I cannot remember who you are) was told by their counselor when it became clear that the husband did not care that they needed to make her strong enough to leave or strong enough to stay. That spoke to me somehow. I am not saying you are not strong, not by any stretch. But the counselor could possibly help you find ways to move thigns within your marriage in directions you would like them to go, or help you decide what you want to do if leaving is something that you have considered.
  
  I've considered leaving, but thus far have rejected it. It doesn't seem to
  be worth all the financial and emotional upheaval, as well as the practical
  difficulties, just for the *hope* that one day I might be happier. My life,
  except for his disapproval is a good one. I like my home, my kids, my
  friends, and the whole niche we fit into. If DH hasn't been in one of his
  sullen moods that day, I'm pretty happy. And DH is a good man, a good
  friend, a good dad, a good worker -- the only thing he isn't good at IMHO is
  being a husband.
  Good luck. (Geesh that is so lame. But what else can someone say?)
  
  LOL, thanks.
  
  Zorra
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:52:00 GMT(64)
• "Emma Anne" <emma_anne@lawknowledge.org.mac.com> wrote in message
  news:1grcmoq.n43st1el4aflN%emma_anne@lawknowledge.org.mac.com... Zorra <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote: Things were a bit rough when the kids were infants, but started really going downhill when I stopped working 5 years ago. If I were you, I'd get a job. Not because your H will then respect you - sadly this doesn't sound likely - but to give you some independence, and sense of accomplishment, and support network away from home.
  
  I addressed this in another post. I do pretty much agree with you, I just
  go back and forth about what kind of job to try to get. Going back to my
  old career is an absolute last resort for me. Taking a "busy work" kind of
  job like cashiering would be fun, but it wouldn't pay enough for child care.
  I guess I'm paralyzed by indecision.
  
  Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 03:25:00 GMT(65)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in Humour works well too.:) Amy LOL, I can see that! It is true that he never seems receptive when I try to talk to him, but sometimes it seems to have had an effect later. But even then he would never come back and say, "About what you were saying yesterday, I see your point." Or anything. It's just that sometimes his grumpiness seems to lessen, or he lays off about something in particular.
  
  Yeah my DH has a particularly hard time saying sorry or anything along those
  lines but he is getting better. I know now that I 'allowed' him to get away
  with stuff by not setting enough boundaries. Things got a lot healthier
  between us since I worked on my self confidence. I now know that I don't
  have to tolerate his bad moods or his put downs. I deserve to be treated
  with respect and if he slips up I let him know it!
  
  Amy
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 05:02:00 GMT(66)
• On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:32:34 -0500, "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote:
  "jbrianchamberlin" <jbrianchamberlin@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in messagenews:cm1301pao5qt336jg00766e4n23or7h61h@lawknowledge.org.4ax .com... It's really a shame. I think a lot of problems between married couples can be fixed easily if BOTH parties are willing to make an effort. I'm just feeling like I'm getting that effort from my wife. Sorry to hear about your friends, Doug. --BrianBrian,I hope you meant what you said above and didn't just leave out the "not"(I'm just *not* feeling like I'm getting that effort from my wife). If sheseems to be putting forth some effort now, that's great and I'm happy foryou.Zorra
  
  Oh right.. I forgot the NOT. =)
  
  --Brian
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 05:32:00 GMT(67)
• <michaela> wrote in message news:t6adnRTXStd_M5zfRVn-iw@lawknowledge.org.is.co.za... Zorra wrote: "Stephanie Stowe" wrote <SNIP> not strong, not by any stretch. But the counselor could possibly help you find ways to move thigns within your marriage in directions you would like them to go, or help you decide what you want to do if leaving is something that you have considered. I've considered leaving, but thus far have rejected it. It doesn't seem to be worth all the financial and emotional upheaval, as well as the practical difficulties, just for the *hope* that one day I might be happier. My life, except for his disapproval is a good one. I like my home, my kids, my friends, and the whole niche we fit into. If DH hasn't been in one of his sullen moods that day, I'm pretty happy. And DH is a good man, a good friend, a good dad, a good worker -- the only thing he isn't good at IMHO is being a husband. And he probably knows you won't leave or put your foot down so he has no incentive to change.
  
  Maybe so, but it's not like I can threaten to leave just to try to make him
  change. Or, at least, I don't think he'd take it seriously until I handed
  him the key to an apartment and said, "Get out" at which point I'd better be
  ready for him to call my bluff.
  Seems to me that until you love you, he's not going to.
  
  What do you mean by this? Why do you think I don't?
  
  Zorra
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 23:05:00 GMT(68)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:sZudnQ-GbZvsvJzfRVn-ow@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Emma Anne" <emma_anne@lawknowledge.org.mac.com> wrote in message news:1grcmoq.n43st1el4aflN%emma_anne@lawknowledge.org.mac.com... Zorra <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote: Things were a bit rough when the kids were infants, but started really going downhill when I stopped working 5 years ago. If I were you, I'd get a job. Not because your H will then respect you - sadly this doesn't sound likely - but to give you some independence, and sense of accomplishment, and support network away from home. I addressed this in another post. I do pretty much agree with you, I just go back and forth about what kind of job to try to get. Going back to my old career is an absolute last resort for me. Taking a "busy work" kind
  of job like cashiering would be fun, but it wouldn't pay enough for child
  care. I guess I'm paralyzed by indecision. Zorra
  You can do one thing for a little while, to see how it works, and if it
  doesn't work, you can switch. You don't have to have all the answers
  up-front. It's okay to try things out. It's the only way to learn.
  The only bad decision is when you decide on something that doesn't work for
  you, and then when you realize it doesn't work, you get stuck and keep doing
  it - instead of learning, making changes and moving on.
• Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:09:00 GMT(69)
• On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:11:02 GMT, emma_anne@lawknowledge.org.mac.com (Emma Anne) wrote:
  Zorra <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote: Things were a bit rough when the kids were infants, but started really going downhill when I stopped working 5 years ago.If I were you, I'd get a job. Not because your H will then respect you- sadly this doesn't sound likely - but to give you some independence,and sense of accomplishment, and support network away from home.
  
  And an income and health insurance, so that you will have more
  options.
  
  Lauri in WA
  
  I like my email spamless
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:55:00 GMT(70)
• "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes:
  "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@lawknowledge.org.bigpond.com> wrote in message news:hGdMd.145465$K7.124447@lawknowledge.org.news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message news:hKadnfN4xeQNsZzfRVn-sg@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:dvpszieqj7.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log...> "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes:>> Well, regardless of whether he loves> you, it is clear that he doesn't treat you with respect.>> Having said that, I want to ask the rhetorical question: how can you> change the way you behave towards him so that you insist on being> treated with more respect? Don't know. My current methods generally end up in arguments that get us nowhere. Do you have any suggestions? One of my favourites is "speak the hand 'cos the ears aren't listening". Another one, when DH is arguing with me and trying to convince me that I am wrong and he is right, is to say "This discussion is going nowhere and I refuse to engage in it anymore". If he continues to try to discuss it I walk away or put my fingers in my ears and sing loudly. :) I understand refusing to argue pointlessly. But I do not understand how to do this, while keeping the lines of communication open for productive discussion. And in the heat, how do you tell the difference? I *know* my DH and I do this. But I will be dipped if I know how. We do have 2 people trying though. One word of, I feel you are attacking me or something, and we pause and apologize and decide if we want to resume the conversation now or later.
  
  Zorra and Mr Zorra are not at a point where they can _have_ productive
  discussions. That point doesn't come until Mr. Zorra realizes it is
  necessary to be more respectful.
  
  Since lines of communication are not actually open, there is no need
  to "keep them open."
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:05:00 GMT(71)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:36gadoF51gtlaU2@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes: He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list. Maybe I should go through the exercise with him though. It might be enlightening. Well, I can understand why you resisted. But it seems like the sort of exercise that could have been worthwhile.
  
  But can you imagine? He's got "job - 45 hours/week" And against that I
  have to put, "get kids on bus - 3:45 hours/week, help with homework - 6ish
  hours/week, dinner, 4 hours/week, vacuuming, 2 hours/week, laundry 3
  hours/week, grocery shopping, 1 hour/week, -- what am I up to, less than 20
  hours so far? Okay, well, picking up the kids stuff off the floor, 2
  hours/week. Getting the kids to pick their *own* stuff off the floor, 3
  hours/week, volunteering - 1 hour/week, except at certain times of the year
  when it's about 20 hours/week, cuddling kids - 5 hours/week, chauffeuring -
  2 hours/week...
  
  Anyway, you get the picture.
  
  I just didn't think we should even go there.
  
  Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 23:33:00 GMT(72)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:36gadoF51gtlaU2@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:36evruF4deg4fU6@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... Zorra and Mr Zorra are not at a point where they can _have_ productive discussions. That point doesn't come until Mr. Zorra realizes it is necessary to be more respectful. Since lines of communication are not actually open, there is no need to "keep them open." Every now and again we manage a good discussion. There was one a few
  weeks ago where I told him that I felt like he was trying to act as CEO in
  this marriage. He claimed it was more like a job share, then asked, "What
  would you do if your job share partner didn't hold up their end of the
  bargain?" I answered that I would not feel unilaterally qualified to determine
  what the goals were. And that I would examine said partner's "failures" to
  see if they really affected the bottom line, or if they only bugged me. He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that
  we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big
  problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house
  and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the
  list. Maybe I should go through the exercise with him though. It might be enlightening. Well, I can understand why you resisted. But it seems like the sort of exercise that could have been worthwhile.
  
  I agree!
• Fri, 04 Feb 2005 06:14:00 GMT(73)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:tNCdneWrl9bzjp7fRVn-iw@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Ellie" <ellie_first@lawknowledge.org.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:RuCMd.7925$sS1.7917@lawknowledge.org.fe12.lga... Zorra wrote: He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list. Do you mean he doesn't value your "nurturing" or does he think it just isn't that much work? A little of both. He wouldn't count the time involved towards work equity mostly.
  
  I guess I am the only one, but this approach seems way wrong to me. You do
  not have to prove to him that you are valuable. You do not have to prove to
  him that what is important to you IS important. And he does not have the
  right to micromanage your job according to his wishes. And families are not
  supposed to be run on a balance sheet with his and her "work equity"
  balancing to the penny. Starting down that road just sounds like a way to
  add more arguments since there cannot be equity when the game is really
  about proving how much righter you are, whcih is what I really think your
  husband is about.
  How about you suggest that each one of you make his/her own list and put everything that they think has to be done, and then compare the lists and only pick the items that are on both lists. That way if he has an item on his list that you don't agree with, it can be negotiated with an item on your list that he doesn't agree with! It may also make him realize how it feels when someone else assigns things to him that he didn't volunteer for. Now that just seems like way too much effort for little or no payoff. Zorra
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 23:05:00 GMT(74)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:sZudnQ-GbZvsvJzfRVn-ow@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Emma Anne" <emma_anne@lawknowledge.org.mac.com> wrote in message news:1grcmoq.n43st1el4aflN%emma_anne@lawknowledge.org.mac.com... Zorra <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote: Things were a bit rough when the kids were infants, but started really going downhill when I stopped working 5 years ago. If I were you, I'd get a job. Not because your H will then respect you - sadly this doesn't sound likely - but to give you some independence, and sense of accomplishment, and support network away from home. I addressed this in another post. I do pretty much agree with you, I just go back and forth about what kind of job to try to get. Going back to my old career is an absolute last resort for me. Taking a "busy work" kind
  of job like cashiering would be fun, but it wouldn't pay enough for child
  care. I guess I'm paralyzed by indecision. Zorra
  You can do one thing for a little while, to see how it works, and if it
  doesn't work, you can switch. You don't have to have all the answers
  up-front. It's okay to try things out. It's the only way to learn.
  The only bad decision is when you decide on something that doesn't work for
  you, and then when you realize it doesn't work, you get stuck and keep doing
  it - instead of learning, making changes and moving on.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 05:02:00 GMT(75)
• On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:32:34 -0500, "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote:
  "jbrianchamberlin" <jbrianchamberlin@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in messagenews:cm1301pao5qt336jg00766e4n23or7h61h@lawknowledge.org.4ax .com... It's really a shame. I think a lot of problems between married couples can be fixed easily if BOTH parties are willing to make an effort. I'm just feeling like I'm getting that effort from my wife. Sorry to hear about your friends, Doug. --BrianBrian,I hope you meant what you said above and didn't just leave out the "not"(I'm just *not* feeling like I'm getting that effort from my wife). If sheseems to be putting forth some effort now, that's great and I'm happy foryou.Zorra
  
  Oh right.. I forgot the NOT. =)
  
  --Brian
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 17:21:00 GMT(76)
• "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> wrote in message
  news:36csneF52rotcU1@lawknowledge.org.individual.net... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:py4qgud91s.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes: (snip) I agree with you, as far as it goes. But how do you change habits of 15 years? I am thinking something along the lines of; honey for 11 years I have been listening to you complain about what I cook you for dinner. I am not going to be a short order cook anymore. If you do not like what I prepared, I suggest you go get a bowl of cereal or something. But then she had better have a thick skin to listen to him whine for some time until the new habit is established. Walking in that house would be like walking in a mine field for some time. Isn't it alreay? She feels like she's tried everything, but maybe she has yet to try actually standing up for herself and setting boundaries. Her current life sounds unhealthy (for her, their children, and for that matter, probably for her husband). She can't make him change. But she could change her behavior and refuse to cave in to disrespectful behavior. I defintely don't disagree. I was actually asking you for details on *how*. HOW does she break the habits of all these years.
  
  She can begin by starting DIFFERENT things, to replace the old bad habits.
  I made one suggestion regarding the menu in another post - it was adding a
  new thing to their lives, which is a subtle but important distinction from
  taking away old things.
  
  There's a book I'd suggest she read, as well - Do One Thing Different, by
  Bill O'Hanlon.
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688177948/qid=1107393300/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-9137656-3610225?v=glance&s=books
  It might just help.
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 12:49:00 GMT(77)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:py4qgud91s.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes: (snip) I agree with you, as far as it goes. But how do you change habits of 15 years? I am thinking something along the lines of; honey for 11 years I have been listening to you complain about what I cook you for dinner. I am not going to be a short order cook anymore. If you do not like what I prepared, I suggest you go get a bowl of cereal or something. But then she had better have a thick skin to listen to him whine for some time until the new habit is established. Walking in that house would be like walking in a mine field for some time. Isn't it alreay? She feels like she's tried everything, but maybe she has yet to try actually standing up for herself and setting boundaries. Her current life sounds unhealthy (for her, their children, and for that matter, probably for her husband). She can't make him change. But she could change her behavior and refuse to cave in to disrespectful behavior.
  
  I defintely don't disagree. I was actually asking you for details on *how*.
  HOW does she break the habits of all these years.
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:07:00 GMT(78)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:tIidnX7Qy7Tc453fRVn-tg@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... Okay, a couple of people have suggested that with the number of issues I bring up, I really ought to have my own thread. So, here it is. *sigh* Except that I don't know where to start. Pretty much everything is wrong, and there's so much history. We've been married for 11 years, were together for 4 before our engagement and 5 before the actual wedding. Things have never been completely smooth sailing for us. It was many years ago that I first became convinced that he has no respect for me. Things were a bit rough when the kids were infants, but started really going downhill when I stopped working 5 years ago.
  
  *snip*
  
  Well, this is *way* too long already, and only about a tenth of what I have to say. But I'll stop here for the sake of sanity.
  
  You need to assert yourself.
  
  I agree with Emma - go get a job.
  
  Your basic problem is you take what people give you - in my house, my wife
  and I love each other and have mutual respect, and yea, she usually cooks
  what like, but since she's the cook, every now and again it's "I'm making
  'x' tonight, which I love but you hate, so you're on your own". And that's
  fine with me - screw it, I'll have a sandwich.
  
  In other words, *you* are the cook. If he doesn't like what you make...
  what? What's he going to do?
  
  I can see you're not assertive in how long you dated and then were engaged.
  I feel you don't like change or rocking the boat.
  
  Things won't get better unless *you* make them better.
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:09:00 GMT(79)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:dvpszieqj7.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> writes: Well, regardless of whether he loves you, it is clear that he doesn't treat you with respect. Having said that, I want to ask the rhetorical question: how can you change the way you behave towards him so that you insist on being treated with more respect? (snip) Some of the things DH is insistant upon are ludicrous. For example, we live on a dead end street, about a 1/4 mile from the cul-de-sac. The bus passes our house, turns around in the cul-de-sac, and comes back. I usually have the kids out there early enough that they board on the way down the street. Every once in a while we're running a few minutes late, and we catch it on the way back. DH considers this unacceptable. It's rude to the bus driver to make her stop twice (actually, she doesn't stop on the way down if no one is there), and it teaches our children that it's okay to be late and to make other people wait on you. The counselor pointed out that if the bus driver has a problem with me, it's up to her to bring it up. Since it's my job to get the kids to school, he shouldn't quibble about it with me. This is the only thing you mention where I have some small sympathy for your husband's point of view. I know our kid's school bus driver. In our area, the bus driver is breaking a rule if she stops anyplace other than the stops on her route.
  
  So what? That is between the bus driver and Zorra. In the Big Marital
  Yardstick in the sky, this seems like a real good one to tell him to shove
  off on IMO.
  Now she is very nice, and is willing to break that rule, but I feel like by asking her to do it, I'd be inconveniencing her or putting her in an awkward spot. I hate inconveniencing others, or teaching my kids that it is OK to inconvenience others. So I would strongly want to get my kids to the appointed stop on time.
  
  You would want to get the kids to the correct place at the correct time.
  That is not the same thing as badgering your wife to do it.
  Instead of granting that any of this might be true, DH got angry that he wasn't "allowed" to complain about things he still thinks are important. At any rate, when school let out for the summer we stopped going to sessions. We didn't start up again this year because they "weren't doing any good." Let me suggest that you keep going to counseling with or without your husband. You need some help learning to not tolerate disrespectful behavior from him. If he wants to come, even better, as long as he is willing to acknowledge that both of you are there to work on things, not just you. DH is convinced I don't do my share around the house. I used to about kill myself trying to please him, but it never worked. He loves words like "gross" and "disgusting". Once he said the refrigerator was disgusting. I go to see what he's talking about, and it was some dried milk flakes on the shelf. 5 seconds with a damp sponge and it was taken care of. Another time it was, "Ewww, gross! What's this?" Well, okay, I'd cleaned out the leftovers and missed *one* tupperware. The biggest problem is that he just assumes I don't do anything. It seems beyond his capacity to understand that you can vaccuum the floor one day, and it will be dirty the next. One day I spent hours cleaning and straightening the garage, and he came in and started stomping around because the counter was too cluttered. He doesn't see what's done, he only sees what isn't. Dinner has always been a huge bone of contention at our house. He likes a much larger variety of foods than I do. Because of that, he takes the superior stance. *I* am the picky one, *he* is the normal one, so therefore I'm obligated to serve him what he wants. Don't play this game. My wife and I share cooking. I cook what pleases me (yes, I like to please her too, but if I make something she doesn't like, I _certainly don't jump up to make an alternative), and she cooks what pleases her.
  
  I agree with you, as far as it goes. But how do you change habits of 15
  years? I am thinking something along the lines of; honey for 11 years I have
  been listening to you complain about what I cook you for dinner. I am not
  going to be a short order cook anymore. If you do not like what I prepared,
  I suggest you go get a bowl of cereal or something. But then she had better
  have a thick skin to listen to him whine for some time until the new habit
  is established. Walking in that house would be like walking in a mine field
  for some time.
  There are many nights that I prepare meals that I don't eat. Yet, if I try to prepare spaghetti or lasagna, which he will eat but are not his favorites, he gets upset. I get away with one or the other at most once a month. In fact, lately he has been refusing to eat them at all, saying that since I don't have to eat the dinners I don't like, he shouldn't have to either. What is wrong with him refusing to eat? It is childish, but let him do it. If he doesn't like the food you prepare, he is free to prepare dinner for himself (or better yet, for everyone). And of course, I'm obligated then to fix the meal he *does* like, since I'm the cook. No, you're not. But he won't believe that until you believe it, and can demonstrate that you believe it. Yikes. Well, your husband sounds terrible - I wouldn't live with him. But _you_ have important work to do to get out from under feeling so devalued by his opinions. Not only is this the only healthy route for you, it is the only healthy route for your children! You don't want them to grow up and try to replicate the kind of relationship you have with your husband. Also, there is a very faint possibility that if you refuse to cater to your husband's whims, he'll grow to respect you. (Though that is probably pretty faint.) Doug
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:17:00 GMT(80)
• "Ellie" <ellie_first@lawknowledge.org.hotmail.com> wrote in message
  news:RuCMd.7925$sS1.7917@lawknowledge.org.fe12.lga... Zorra wrote: He then suggested we write down a list of what needed to be done so that we were on the same page about it. I resisted that idea for a few reasons. First, I don't think we could agree. I mean, that's one of our big problems already, that we don't agree on what needs to be done around the house and when. Second, I didn't think he'd put all my "nurturing" stuff on the list. Do you mean he doesn't value your "nurturing" or does he think it just isn't that much work?
  
  A little of both. He wouldn't count the time involved towards work equity
  mostly.
  How about you suggest that each one of you make his/her own list and put everything that they think has to be done, and then compare the lists and only pick the items that are on both lists. That way if he has an item on his list that you don't agree with, it can be negotiated with an item on your list that he doesn't agree with! It may also make him realize how it feels when someone else assigns things to him that he didn't volunteer for.
  
  Now that just seems like way too much effort for little or no payoff.
  
  Zorra
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 19:22:00 GMT(81)
• "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> wrote in message
  news:36etioF3ouhs0U1@lawknowledge.org.individual.net...
  You do NOT have to leave him or threaten to leave him to try to change these patterns, though in the meantime I would not accpept an invitation to visit at your house, if you get my drift.
  
  I think you'd be safe visiting. We've been fighting pretty good for the
  past year and a half now, and have still managed to hold it together in
  public. :-)
  
  Zorra
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:35:00 GMT(82)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:sZudnQ-GbZvsvJzfRVn-ow@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... "Emma Anne" <emma_anne@lawknowledge.org.mac.com> wrote in message news:1grcmoq.n43st1el4aflN%emma_anne@lawknowledge.org.mac.com... Zorra <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote: Things were a bit rough when the kids were infants, but started really going downhill when I stopped working 5 years ago. If I were you, I'd get a job. Not because your H will then respect you - sadly this doesn't sound likely - but to give you some independence, and sense of accomplishment, and support network away from home. I addressed this in another post. I do pretty much agree with you, I just go back and forth about what kind of job to try to get. Going back to my old career is an absolute last resort for me. Taking a "busy work" kind of job like cashiering would be fun, but it wouldn't pay enough for child care. I guess I'm paralyzed by indecision. Zorra
  
  I, personally, don't think you should get an outside the home job unless you
  want an outside the home job. It does not seem to me that this would be
  condusive to the goals that Emma mentioned, giving you independenc and a
  sense of accomplishment, unless they would give *you* that indepenance and
  sense. If it just makes you have one more thing to do on a long list, then
  it will not serve.
• Wed, 02 Feb 2005 23:09:00 GMT(83)
• "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message
  news:nx7jlq7hgc.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@lawknowledge.org.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:py4qgud91s.fsf@lawknowledge.org.ethel.the.log... "Stephanie Stowe" <IwishIcould@lawknowledge.org.nospam.com> writes: (snip)> I agree with you, as far as it goes. But how do you change habits of
  15> years? I am thinking something along the lines of; honey for 11 years
  I> have> been listening to you complain about what I cook you for dinner. I am
  not> going to be a short order cook anymore. If you do not like what I> prepared,> I suggest you go get a bowl of cereal or something. But then she had> better> have a thick skin to listen to him whine for some time until the new> habit> is established. Walking in that house would be like walking in a mine> field> for some time. Isn't it alreay? She feels like she's tried everything, but maybe she has yet to try actually standing up for herself and setting boundaries. Her current life sounds unhealthy (for her, their children, and for that matter, probably for her husband). She can't make him change. But she could change her behavior and refuse to cave in to disrespectful behavior. I defintely don't disagree. I was actually asking you for details on
  *how*. HOW does she break the habits of all these years. Oh. Sorry! I don't know. I think she just has to start. She'll need a lot of support, and she won't get it from her husband. One of the reasons I think counseling (for her) is in order.
  
  Therapy is a good start.
  For me, there is a book that was rather helpful, it's called 'I want to
  change, but I don't know how'
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 06:02:00 GMT(84)
• "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@lawknowledge.org.bigpond.com> wrote in message
  news:SSnMd.146178$K7.87598@lawknowledge.org.news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in Humour works well too.:) Amy LOL, I can see that! It is true that he never seems receptive when I try to talk to him, but sometimes it seems to have had an effect later. But even then he would never come back and say, "About what you were saying yesterday, I see your point." Or anything. It's just that sometimes his grumpiness seems to lessen, or he lays off about something in particular. Yeah my DH has a particularly hard time saying sorry or anything along those lines but he is getting better. I know now that I 'allowed' him to get away with stuff by not setting enough boundaries. Things got a lot healthier between us since I worked on my self confidence. I now know that I don't have to tolerate his bad moods or his put downs. I deserve to be treated with respect and if he slips up I let him know it! Amy
  
  You know, this is one of the biggest signs of hope I've seen for us. He
  never once apologized in the first decade of our marriage. The closest he
  came was "I'm sorry that you...." He actually has apologized at least twice
  within the last year.
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:47:00 GMT(85)
• <SNIP>
  It make me want to slap K. upside the head and say "look, dummy, you don't have to change into a completely different person. You just have to start showing you care about L. again." Doug
  
  Just say it. Why do we all keep our mouths shut. If she tells you I can't
  change myself, then you reply...
• Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:16:00 GMT(86)
• "Zorra" <zorra@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.net> wrote in message
  news:WJGdnXVJbOloup_fRVn-uQ@lawknowledge.org.adelphia.com... <michaela> wrote in message news:t6adnRTXStd_M5zfRVn-iw@lawknowledge.org.is.co.za... Zorra wrote: "Stephanie Stowe" wrote <SNIP>> not strong, not by any stretch. But the counselor could possibly> help you find ways to move thigns within your marriage in directions> you would like them to go, or help you decide what you want to do if> leaving is something that you have considered. I've considered leaving, but thus far have rejected it. It doesn't seem to be worth all the financial and emotional upheaval, as well as the practical difficulties, just for the *hope* that one day I might be happier. My life, except for his disapproval is a good one. I like my home, my kids, my friends, and the whole niche we fit into. If DH hasn't been in one of his sullen moods that day, I'm pretty happy. And DH is a good man, a good friend, a good dad, a good worker -- the only thing he isn't good at IMHO is being a husband. And he probably knows you won't leave or put your foot down so he has no incentive to change. Maybe so, but it's not like I can threaten to leave just to try to make him change. Or, at least, I don't think he'd take it seriously until I handed him the key to an apartment and said, "Get out" at which point I'd better be ready for him to call my bluff. Seems to me that until you love you, he's not going to. What do you mean by this? Why do you think I don't?
  
  Some people think, though I do not happen to be one of them, that if you
  allow someone to walk on you that you must have a low self esteem to the
  point where even you don't like yourself. What I often see is a nice person
  trying to apply their values of caring and loving getting stuck in a pattern
  where they are trying to be caring and loving, expecting reciprocity from
  their dearest love. But not everyone has the same capacity or understanding
  of caring, so they take advantage. Over time, a pattern like yours can
  develop.
  
  It seems like blaming the victim to say that since you do not stand up for
  yourself, your husband has no reason to change. And I suppose, to some
  extent it is. But the truth seems to be, whether fair or not, if you wan to
  change your spouse's behavior, you have to provide the motivation from his
  perspective to want to change. In my opinion, it *should* be enough to say
  to the supposed love of your life, I am unhappy and I need your help. But
  alas, we are all only human and it often does not work. So instead, you have
  to provide the motivation in the form of, I have had enough of this bad
  treatment and I am not going to take it anymore.
  
  You do NOT have to leave him or threaten to leave him to try to change these
  patterns, though in the meantime I would not accpept an invitation to visit
  at your house, if you get my drift.
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we did sign the adoption paperwork at the hospital and we did have uor state clearences done,however nothing was signed for the fbi clearences.thanks Jerry...

Why did the American playwright picked Zamzama for adoption at the cost of about $10,000 and not any of other half a million orphans of Afghanistan? The story does not appear to have broken on print media as yet. A bit of Zamzama's story is like following. =============== An orphaned Afghan......

I rewrote it to reflect the truth: The majority of divorcing women are monsters of hypocrisy and egoism, who demonstrate the inability to love anyone but themselves.----------------------------------------- Majority of divorcing women are monsters of hypocrisy and egoism, frustrated of not having......

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What is the name of your state? Anytown, USA "Your rights end where mine begin" Is there any legal basis for this old saying? Particularly regarding children......

Some questions maybe you're interest in...

[Accidents & Personal Injury Law] What is the name of your state? CA Last year I was involved in an accident where I was turning left and a motorcycle crashed into the rear right door of my SUV. The motorcycle had the right of the way because he was going straight. Unfortunately, the cyclist passed away. Now, I am being charged.........

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[Accidents & Personal Injury Law] 12345678910......